Cooking An Engine - Whats The Punishment

[MagSeal]

Jetbox...glad to see you're still around, you up and dissappeared for a bit. I was worried that the cybermonsters got you too.

As for our poor pilot involved in this, there are alot of other links we haven't heard about yet I'm sure. I would hope he had a valid reason for departing after a known overtemp if thats truly the case. Maybe the lions in africa were lurking just out of site in the long grass.

But correct me if i'm wrong, did the FADEC not do it's job, or is it just not capable of protecting the system when a problem such as a finger slipping off the button happens?

 

[Blackmac]

JetBox: You forgot what this whole venue is about, it is to speculate on everybody else's problem in absence of actual knowledge.

Cheers, Don

 

[cap]

Heli Ops ------ based on your further explanation, I'll offer this opinion so far. One can made an "honest mistake" and I've done my alloted share I believe, so I won't pillory the guy for that unless he had a track record of "occurences" beforehand. I do have a problem with him knowing about the event and proceeding to fly, with/without anyone onboard. Unfortuneately, based on the info you have supplied so far, if I were his Ops Manager, things aren't looking too good for him right now until I get more info about his reasons and line of thinking for that flight. The engine just costs money and they make them everyday, but IF that aircraft had gone down and you as the passenger were killed, then things get a lot uglier than an engine O/H or an outright purcahse of same.

One must be careful on this subject of engine over-temps because it's a subject that will draw complete silence or make many wince. Once upon a time in" days of yore", the subject was over-revs and drew the same type of response......silence or wincing.

 

[arctic_front]

I've read this post with interest....and by no means want to imply any dis-respect to pilots....but if I made a mistake as an engineer that resulted in a cooked engine, I would expect to be fired on the spot...not because I believe I would deserve that, but that is what I would expect. I know from a few past gaffs that even the most minor mistakes quickly escalate into major ones, and the lack of sympathy or understanding as to the "why's or how's" mistakes get made, or how diligently I might have performed previously, there 'appears' to be a double standard to how pilots and engineers are treated when things go wrong. I have never made such a serious mistake as that, but I can see in foresight that it would carry a lot of bad, bad connotations to anyone at my current or past employers for the hapless engineer responsible for a mistake the resulted in a cooked engine. Is it that engineers are held to a much higher expectation?...or is it that maintenance errors are regarded more seriously? I don't know. any input from other engineers on this?...I have just 'sensed' this mood in this industry a lot in the past....I teach my apprentices that "there are no acceptable mistakes, EVER" but I also know we are human...we will make them. we all, pilots and engineers, strive to prevent them, but should we be persecuted for a failing of being human?....short of gross negligenceof course.

 

[cap]

Arctic Front ----- totally agree with you sir. The particular concern that I have is this and I'll draw a parallel. If you made a major mistake during maintenance on some part of an aircraft's engine and knew about that mistake, would you also remain silent and allow that aircraft to make a flight even though it might complete same successfully? The "mistake " is human and you are correct, but saying nothing and allowing that aircraft to take-off is a "decision" on your part.and not part of the original "mistake". The former may/may not be acceptable to some superiors, but the latter would be hard to explain away to the DOM.

 

[arctic_front]

Cap, that was the " gross negligence" part of my previous post. I can't imagine too many engineer's that would knowingly allow an aircraft to do a flight after knowing they made a big boo boo. Ignorance of same boo boo is posible, but not if they KNOW there was something wrong.

 

[cap]

Arctic_Front-------understood. I just got your "mix all talked up". I am sorry to report though, that I was part of a near-disaster eons ago because of an engineer of many years doing exactly what we are talking about here. He made a "mistake" and "decided" to amplify that mistake my staying quiet about it. It was his belief that if anything happened that the "mistake" would be damaged and not found out (so he stated). After completing the flight, the aircraft was left outside and all left, knowing nothing was amiss. He was dicovered in the wee hours of the morning in the act of correcting his "mistake". That was another poor "decision" on top of the original one. Result?.......after all the dust settled, his license was suspended for 2 years. Do not read into this that I am attacking engineers, but just explaining what happened and how an honest "mistake" can be compounded by the "decisions" we make afterwards, when we know we have made that "mistake". "Nuff" said.

 

[Harmonic_Vibe]

I can imagine the horrible pressure he felt after the initial mistake. Especially being new to the outfit without sufficient time to prove himself and build up the "equity" required to ride something like that out.

However, an experienced pilot making a conscious decision to fly a machine with a potentially unservicable engine... with passengers of any ilk, including his own people... I don't think if I was his boss I would be his boss anymore. I've had that horrible "shotgun in the backseat" sound when a turbine decides to leave you in flight, and just thinking about taking off after an over-temp of undetermined proportions scares the hell out of me.

Even if maintenance had been contacted and I was told to fly it home I suspect I would have insisted on a borescope or other hot-end inspection before I would do so.

HV

 

[Over-Talk]

Hi Harmonic Vibrator....

Hot-end inspection ?????????
Yowza ! I don't even like it when my doctor does that to me.....let alone an engineer !!!!
Is this what TACHBOX was warning us about on that other "deteriorating" thread ??


P.S. Do you find it interesting to read all TACHBOX's direct slurs of people, and then his threats about legal action because of what other people have said about someone else.......(or is it really someone else). .....and why does he keep listing jwsralphs personal and private legal issues on this forum???..........Hmmmmmm.

 

[downwash]

Most of the good comments to be made about this kind of experience have been made. I'd only like to add that, if a company fires you for an honest human mistake, not one of a series, did you really want to be with that kind of an outfit? The industry has come a long way from when that was 'common' practice, and I trust there'll be no regression. B)

 

[Harmonic_Vibe]

P.S. Do you find it interesting to read all TACHBOX's direct slurs of people, and then his threats about legal action because of what other people have said about someone else.......(or is it really someone else). .....and why does he keep listing jwsralphs personal and private legal issues on this forum???..........Hmmmmmm.

Wasn't there a song called "Things That Make You Go Hmmmm"? I'm trying to avoid further comment because I'm afraid to let the genie out of the bottle...

HV :wacko:

 

[TACHBOX]

interesting dilema! Difficult to provide a "prediction answer" without more information.Is it a big company like CHC, or a mom and pop?
Small corporation with not alot of money- odds are he is gone, if they can support that he was not paying attention.
I have never started a EC but suspect that it's the same french setup as the 350. ?Not including the Quebec specials BA+ tankmotor variety,French engine types only.
It would be hard to do if you where paying attention if the same holds true for the EC. The start sequence is clear ( monitor the TOT? if she runs after second peak- hot, back off the fuel no?
Did it light up hot at the begining of the start sequence? EC has a FADESCRAP -i don't know?
I have seen and heard of many pilots that have been canned for negligence, but never because something wasn't rigged properly? But then again there is not alot on the french engines to deal with adjusting, compared to a C20 for example.
But who is going to take the blame? The engineer if there was something wrong? never! Then its his ass .Assuming it was not the pilots fault, on a newer engine Eurocopter would definately find something.
Lots of stories of unruly wrenches forgetting to twist back the throttle on the Jet box after an inspection, pilot jumps in hits the button without checking the detent and poof! Pilot got fired for that! more than a few guys!
The unfortunate thing is that Big $ ,somebody is going to wear it!
thats my two cents worth, feel sorry for the guy, nothing worse than tribulation!

 

[TACHBOX]

.

"Keeps listing private legal matters of a person by there full legal name without consent", never! I do hold firm on the fact that if you consider it fair and civil to open a forum at the expense of any individual then its open season on everyone! What's fair is fair right! Or are you one of those individuals who picks and chooses who gets burnt? Probable makes you feel big ?

I would guess that this MR.VIBE might in fact have some deep rooted issues, where buy his actions of opening the "deteriorating industry standards subject " VIBO, defacto maybe feeling guilty about something? Trash anybody lately? Perhaps he derives some sick satisfaction from it?

So make up your mind VIBO, open season or keep it civil by providing a balance and not opening up on anybody? You are the one making the rules here, Goto love contraversy when approved under the VIBO edict. If anything I feel sorry for the kid who got it up the hoop. Kinda makes me want to stay away from Alberta Canada!

Jer-ry, Jer-ry, Jer-ry

It's anybody's guess folks!

There isn't any chance that you come from the Southern States is there?

 

[Harmonic_Vibe]

I have nothing to add... at this time. :wacko:

HV

 

[MagSeal]

I don't know if it's me, my sleep apnea may have acted up again last night and deprived me of some vital oxygen, but I am having a heck of a time decifering (spell check please) some of the posts that are on here today.
I wonder if sleep deprivation is spreading to some individuals just so they don't miss a second of what has been going on here of late.
Maybe some guys should have a good sleep before they open up and vent what's on their minds. It may be good for all parties.

P.S. where's all the moderators lately anyway? Kyle???