Cooking An Engine - Whats The Punishment

[Heli Ops]

Hey Guys,

Just wondering if you could provide some feedback. I have a friend who cooked an engine on an EC120 out in the field. It was an honest mistake and now his bosses want to fire him.

The question is this. If one of your employees cooked an engine would you fire them, reprimand them, ground them, or what.

Thanks for your feedback on this one. Much appreciated.

Heli Ops

 

[MagSeal]

How do you cook a 120 engine?

I'm not in a position to determine this guys fate (or others in that situation). But it was explained to me by someone in that position, that it is the pilots sole resposibility to ensure that the engine start sequence is monitored correctly and measures taken to prevent overtemps etc.
It was brought up when the question was asked who is responsible when a faulty, new or overhauled FCU is installed. Nobody really knows where that first start will actually end up, therefore the pilot in command must be prepared (as he should with all starts) to take action just in case.
I think it sucks that he's on the chopping block for something that really doesn't rate up there on the top ten worst things to do, but he is responsible to some degree.
I take it he doesn't work for Canadian. He wouldn't be fired for it, he'd be on his way to penticton for recurrent training and a new endorsement.

 

[Harmonic_Vibe]

I have seen this happen before and I don't know of anyone that was ever fired for it. It is very simple, through distraction or other forms of inattention, to over-temp some engines during start. The pilot certainly does have full responsibility for the result if the engine becomes a pile of slag. However, pilots are human and occasionally make mistakes.

Pilots sometimes try to start with the tie-down on. I saw a guy with blades turning and a bright orange winter cover still installed on his aircraft (with nice new holes for the exhaust). We had a guy take off with his engineer standing on the rear cross tube adjusting the RRPM... it was referred to as "flight with engineer attached". How many guys have forgotten the longline was attached?

The point is that people are not infallible. If we were, there would be no need for checklists or three tonnes of paper to perform a 100-hour inspection. If a pattern of behaviour develops, (i.e. a pilot or engineer make multiple or repeated mistakes) then it may be that the organization should part company with the individual... we do have a responsibility to our customers and the public to provide them with a high level of safety and professionalism.

This should be undertaken on a case by case basis, with a sober examination of ALL the facts (fatique, schedule, form of distraction, systemic problems such as training method, etc). If a pilot or engineer is a good employee and an asset to the company I think it would be beyond ridiculous to terminate them for one incident. The saying, "there are those who have and those who will..." comes into play here... He's already had his, so with due diligence in the future, may there never be another.

HV

 

[tomascupwing]

Not knowing the pilot's history, experience level or training and under standing of the aircraft, it is hard to comment on punishment. However, by firing the pilot , the company will lose out on the experience that it has just paid for. Remember what doesn't kill you makes you better.

 

[BaldEagle]

Hey Guys,
I have a friend who cooked an engine on an EC120 out in the field. It was an honest mistake and now his bosses want to fire him.
Heli Ops

How come someone can cook an Arrius with a mistake ? (honest or not).

I never heard such a thing.

 

[Harmonic_Vibe]

How come someone can cook an Arrius with a mistake ? (honest or not).

I never heard such a thing.

There are a whack of stories on PPRUNE about hot starting EC 120's so I'd hazard a guess it happens... I've never even sat in one myself.

HV

 

[Bladestrike]

I've personally fired someone for cooking in engine, but there was certainly more to it than that one incident. Basically it was a good guy with a penchant for f#$@ups, and it was put to me by the guys signing the checks that either he goes or the base would be closed down (we weren't that profitable that we could afford too many f@#$ups.......one job or seven jobs??? Needless to say I tried to make it as painless as possible.

I doubt someone with an excellent record who gets along with everyone and works hard would be let go for one incident, on the otherhand, if someone was looking for an excuse to rid themselves of a questionable employee...........

 

[cap]

Heli Ops ------- I'm afraid that you'd have to "flesh out that skelton" with a bit more information before I'd venture an opinion. I don't believe there is a set rule for such happenings. There are many contributing factors and some have been mentioned here already.

 

[T-rex]

Heli-Ops,

I guess everyone on here is under the belief that your friend 'cooked' the engine on start-up! Guys come on, there are many ways to over temp an engine. Not familair with the 120 but yes, at start-up, at shut-down, over temping. Lets get more details on this issue before we carry his head away on a stick.
Took a very interesting course this past year. Accident Investigations. It is amazing how we look to hang someone out to dry. This course teaches you to find the root causes of incidents and accidents. My thought process has changed dramatically on these issues, and one needs a clear unbias mind before setting out.
For all we know it was a quick type rating, weak battery, poor recurrent training, aircraft malfucntion, poor maintenace, or other factors. We need the whole storey! As for disciplinary action, the result of the investigation must be reviewed and discussed, then proper actions can be taken. As for firing a person, your company should have a proper human resource procedure in place for this action. The employer is liable for thier actions and may be sued!

 

[VERTICAL REF]

Smartest thing said in a long time on this forum!

 

[Heli Ops]

Ok guys will give up as much info as I can without letting on who or where.

Person is ex military, spent most of his life on heavier machinery in the Puma catergory. Got a job with government department operating EC120s. Has not done a lot of flying in them. We were out on a job in the bush. Had landed and was starting the engine again when he lost concentration on the start for some reason, the engine overtemped but he still continue with the flight and flew from point A to Point B which was about a ten or fifteen minute flight.

After we landed there he decided to check all the system logs and it registered overtemp of 999 degrees. The problem was it was one of the older FADEC systems and it only records a max of 999 degrees so it could have gone anywhere between 999 and 1200 degrees or so. A series of phone calls back to the Chief Engineer resulted in the helo getting put on the back of a truck and carted back to their base.

To be honest the one thing that concerned me was that he continued to fly it from A to B even after the overtemp. The reason I say it concerned me is that I was in the back of the thing.

Any further opinions on this now.

Heli Ops

 

[Nomex]

Heli-Ops

Having never flown an EC120, what is the start T4, around 875 or so?

999 plus ? is a significant overtemp I am sure - and the flight after - I share your concern - wonder if it would have been reported if it was a machine without the ability to record parameters...

Will abide/agree with T-Rex on having to know all the details prior to making a decision, but your version does not look good for the pilot's decision-making ability.

 

[Skids Up]

Had landed and was starting the engine again when he lost concentration on the start for some reason…

While some of the posts have leaned toward the “forgiveness†end of the scale, it would seem that it wasn’t just an “honest mistakeâ€. I’m guessing, but I would think that the start cost somewhere over the 6 figure range in the expense book. It would seem that if the FADEC stops recording at 999 it would be too much of a coincidence to believe that the start stopped there.

Having not yet (!!) done it to that extent, this almost falls out of the professional pilot expected area of performance. Unless someone was walking into the blades, or some equal potential problem, how can we :unsure: “lost concentration on the start for some reason…†during the start. When we put the finger, thumb or whatever on the starter button, all of our attention should be focused there. We all get a little used to the fact that since it started OK last time, it will probably start OK this time as well, but it is not the time to be letting our concentration wander off to something else.

All of our mediums and intermediates have a “rat box†installed and have caught a number of unreported over limits, both in temps and torques. Some serious, some embarrassing, but sure eliminates the “forgetting to report†the incident. Some have complained that they limit our ability to “keep up†:down: with the pack, but it is nice to know that the one sitting there before you wasn’t being the hero on the job. B)

 

[Over-Talk]

Unfortunately there are more questions than answers on this one.

Being distracted on the start is a human error, and may be acceptable depending on what the distraction was, and it's possible consequences.

However, though I never like to second-guess another pilot's decisions, I feel flying the aircraft before checking the FADEC report and also having passengers on board goes beyond human error.
It stinks of unprofessionalism and negligence (see posts on Legal Challenge topic).
This sort of behaviour is only acceptable if the helicopter and it's passengers would have been at more risk by staying where they were, i.e. in a dangerous location and/or temperature.

Thanks to the chief engineer for stopping this flight by calling a truck.

 

[jetbox]

Some of you boys are pretty quick to point the finger at this guy, based solely on hearsay. Why don't you wait until you hear the facts from the man himself before you hang him.
T-Rex was bang on the money!!!!!

Don't point your finger if you didn't see it first hand :down: