Continued Losses

[mrfish3726]

HEY RAT BOY! No matter how you look at it UniTED will ALWAYS SUC, PERIOD!!!! And we got nothing to fear of you coming out of BK as a LCC either!!!

 

[mrfish3726]

And termination rumors were started by FLY, I would give you my old employee number to dispute that if they didn't release my name with that information but you could still probably find it some place in the union list since they HARDLY EVER updated it. But I wish to remain an unknown to you over there RAT BOY. It's fun to get you wound up like a top! Have a great X-MAS and a HAPPY NEW YEAR. Enjoy those last few $30 an hour pay checks cause those will be gone with the NEW YEAR.

Pissssst, and hey RAT BOY, UniTED SUX's TODAY, it will SUC tomorrow, next week, and WILL REALLY SUC after the NEW YEAR

 

[uafa21]

The pbgc can and will sue Ua for unpaid pension contributions. These contributions are owed now. They could force a lein on future Ua's profits for many years to come. If and when pensions are terminated by the company their will be no future contributions. There is a debt to past contributions. Employee pay is at the front of the line in bk and a pension benefit was part of our employee pay. Going forward that may not be the case, but not now.

Ua can't just walk from the funds now obligated. True retiree's will still get paid, a lesser amount to emplyee's vested. The Fed's which run the pbgc can do everything within their power to make Ua liquidate to prevent other airlines from doing the same thing, dumping pensions.

Management is playing a very tricky game and they are doing so at Ua's exspense.

 

[Dave]

UAFA21, I'm not sure where you're getting your information, but there is NO possible way for the PBGC to force UA to liquidate. The most they can do is sue, in which case, they'll be in for a long, drawn out court battle. And even if they win, it will be many years before they see a dime, if they see anything at all.

I think it stinks that it's come to this, but the fact of the matter is, UA cannot afford the several billion dollars that is required to bring the defined benefit plans back to its' required minimum funding. And the reason the PBGC was created was to make sure retirees weren't left holding the bag when a corporation defaulted on it's plans. So it looks as though the PBGC is doing what it was designed to do.

The ironic part is, all of this could have been avoided if the ATSB had granted our loan guarantee, something that wouldn't have cost the goverment a dime; in fact, they very well could have made money on the deal. Now it looks as though the tax payers may be handed a bill.

Pretty stupid.

 

[mrfish3726]

Dave,

The ATSB'S main objective was to stabilze the airline industry after 9/11 with taxpayers money! UniTED tried 3 times to convince them that they had a sound business plan and still couldn't obtain the ATSB'S trust of taxpayers money PERIOD! And now with USAIR is in their second BK I am sure the 3 gentlemen that approved that loan are EVER SORRY that they did that NOW B) . SO since United couldn't steal the money from the ATSB and the taxpayers, they are going to try and steal it from the PBGC and the employees of UniTED.

There has only been one airline that was granted an ATSB loan that has made good on it's repayment. payed off in ten months when they had several years to pay it back and that was none other than Denvers hometown airline FRONTIER

 

[767jetz]

How dare you think that the PBGC should accept billions of dollars of liability without a fight ...

[post="231152"][/post]​

Uhhhhhhh, maybe you should go easy on the spiked egg nog. Read my post again. I said the PBGC can fight all they want. But in the end they will cover their responsibility if the pension goes through a distressed termination. It's that simple. They can do nothing to stop it, just like they couldn't stop the termination of the USAir pilot's pension.

It's not like anyone here wants their pension terminated. But the bottom line is the PBGC is the last one who can stop it. So all this talk about "letting" or "forcing" UA to liquidate is nonsense.

 

[casual rat]

Hey, he made a choice which turned out to be good for him. Can't fault him for that. It's more than I can say for a lot of others who are going about business like nothing has happened. These are the people I have no sympathy for. Good luck, the new year is fast approaching.

[post="231287"][/post]​

I find it respectable that Chum went down a different path, it took some guts. What I find disrespectful is that he comes in here to flame his former coworkers. Not to mention he resorts to name calling and twists facts whenever he sees fit.

What do you suggest that people do? Burn down the barn? "Wow, Earl, we got 'em didn't we? Haw Haw".

"We got 'em Jeb, but now there ain't a place for our ponies".

 

[casual rat]

And termination rumors were started by FLY, I would give you my old employee number to dispute that if they didn't release my name with that information but you could still probably find it some place in the union list since they HARDLY EVER updated it. But I wish to remain an unknown to you over there RAT BOY. It's fun to get you wound up like a top! Have a great X-MAS and a HAPPY NEW YEAR. Enjoy those last few $30 an hour pay checks cause those will be gone with the NEW YEAR.

Pissssst, and hey RAT BOY, UniTED SUX's TODAY, it will SUC tomorrow, next week, and WILL REALLY SUC after the NEW YEAR

[post="231292"][/post]​

You seem kind of 'oral' in your latest tirade Chum...Are you flirting with me? :blink:

 

[uafa21]

The pbgc does guaranty the pensions and will continue to do so I never said they wouldn't. Most companies that have dumped their pension plans are no longer in business, what do you think will happen if Ua dumps their plan? All the other airlines, AMR, DAL, CAL NWAC, AWA, ALK will have to follow suit to be able to be competetive in the market place.

The pbgc is a governmental agency. The judge in the bk for Ua is a Federal District Judge. Do you for one think that the Fed's are not watching this closly. They will NOT let all airlines dump without a warning shot. That warning shot will be in a threat form that says, yes you can dump your pensions on the PBGC, however, you'll no longer be in business.

The PBGC did put a judgement on USair a year or so ago and it didn't take them long to do it. This will be a messy situation no matter how it comes out.

In this mornings Rocky Mountain News, there is a story about Ua's pensions. Pilots getting $12,000 a month pension, F/A's 2900 a month and a mechanic $3,000 a month. All these people were under 60 years of age. There will not be much sympathy from the public out there as most of them work till 65 or so. Do you think they will flip burgers making minimun wage and a ss check while pension benefits are being doled out with the tax they pay?

Another thing, do you honestly beleive the $2B bailout by the ATSB would have worked? We would have already spent that sum of money on our losses. This company does not have a clue and has been sitting back thinking that they will be bailed out. It isn't going to happen. Their wasn't enough money in the ATSB plan to bail out Ua's pensions. In fact if the truth were known the atsb probably didn't want to commit a guaranty because they knew Ua had a flawed plan. Blame management for a plan that wasn't feasable.

I blame my union as well. I give them $40 a month for not a damn thing. It has been totally non-existant for the last 2 years. The union leaders should have been addressing the pension shortfalls several years ago instead of letting it happen now. We have hears about pensions going away since early summer and nothing from the unions except this is unaceeptable.

 

[Fly]

I do not believe for one second that the PBGC has any power to determine who can put out of business. They are an insurance company, nothing more. The other legacy carriers can't decide to dump their pensions unless they were in bk too, so I don't think that is a major worry.

 

[Winglet]

I do not believe for one second that the PBGC has any power to determine who can put out of business. They are an insurance company, nothing more. The other legacy carriers can't decide to dump their pensions unless they were in bk too, so I don't think that is a major worry.

[post="231469"][/post]​

Oh yea? Expect Delta and American to be in Bk by next fall if U and UAL are still in business dumping tickets in the market.

The only thing that's going to stave off BK in the other legacies is a needed 25% decrease in airline seats and a restoration of yields. Otherwise, everybody's going to drown.

 

[North by Northwest]

WASHINGTON—The Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation (PBGC) filed a brief in bankruptcy court Dec. 10 supporting a motion by United Airlines’ independent pension fiduciary to compel the company to make more than $800 million in required contributions to its pension plans.

“United Airlines’ pension debt is a legally binding obligation to its employees,â€￾ said Executive Director Bradley Belt. “Just as companies in bankruptcy must continue to pay current wages to their workers, they must also pay for the deferred wages earned by employees.â€￾

United Airlines filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in December 2002. The company failed to make required contributions to its defined-benefit pension plans on July 15, Sept. 15, and Oct. 15, 2004, and owes the plans unpaid contributions of more than $800 million. The Employee Retirement Income Security Act (ERISA) requires United to continue funding its pension plans unless the plans are terminated or the IRS grants a waiver of the minimum funding requirements. In August the company and the U.S. Department of Labor agreed to appoint an independent fiduciary to oversee the interests of the pension plans, and on November 30 the fiduciary filed its motion seeking to give the unpaid contributions priority status as administrative expenses of the estate.

The PBGC brief emphasizes that under federal pension law unpaid pension contributions in excess of $1,000,000 are considered tax obligations and that pension obligations that come due after a bankruptcy filing have priority as administrative expenses. The entire amount of United’s unpaid pension contributions therefore has priority as both a tax liability and an administrative expense. The PBGC also notes that United has not obtained court approval to modify its collective bargaining agreements with its unions and must honor the terms of those agreements, which require continued contributions to the pension plans. One is seriously mistaken if one believes United cannot be forced into liquidation over the failed pension issued. Re-read the priority of debtors, Uncle-Sam and the employees are at the head of the line.

 

[aafsc]

WASHINGTON—The Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation (PBGC) filed a brief in bankruptcy court Dec. 10 supporting a motion by United Airlines’ independent pension fiduciary to compel the company to make more than $800 million in required contributions to its pension plans.

“United Airlines’ pension debt is a legally binding obligation to its employees,â€￾ said Executive Director Bradley Belt. “Just as companies in bankruptcy must continue to pay current wages to their workers, they must also pay for the deferred wages earned by employees.â€￾

United Airlines filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in December 2002. The company failed to make required contributions to its defined-benefit pension plans on July 15, Sept. 15, and Oct. 15, 2004, and owes the plans unpaid contributions of more than $800 million. The Employee Retirement Income Security Act (ERISA) requires United to continue funding its pension plans unless the plans are terminated or the IRS grants a waiver of the minimum funding requirements. In August the company and the U.S. Department of Labor agreed to appoint an independent fiduciary to oversee the interests of the pension plans, and on November 30 the fiduciary filed its motion seeking to give the unpaid contributions priority status as administrative expenses of the estate.

The PBGC brief emphasizes that under federal pension law unpaid pension contributions in excess of $1,000,000 are considered tax obligations and that pension obligations that come due after a bankruptcy filing have priority as administrative expenses. The entire amount of United’s unpaid pension contributions therefore has priority as both a tax liability and an administrative expense. The PBGC also notes that United has not obtained court approval to modify its collective bargaining agreements with its unions and must honor the terms of those agreements, which require continued contributions to the pension plans. One is seriously mistaken if one believes United cannot be forced into liquidation over the failed pension issued. Re-read the priority of debtors, Uncle-Sam and the employees are at the head of the line.

[post="231566"][/post]​

Very interesting. If the PBGC prevails, what will the unions do? Will they all agree to a voluntary termination of the plans to keep UA going and the dues flowing? Because according to another poster, if the unions agree to termination then the PBGC will not have to pay anything. But this will remove a huge obstacle for UA's emergence from BK

 

[uafa21]

aafc - The pbgc will pay benefits to vest ua employee's. They will not get the full benfit and already retired employee's will not get as much as they do now. IF YOU ARE A UA VESTED EMPLOYEE YOU WILL GET SOMETHING.

 

[North by Northwest]

It is an enormously complexed delimma. I only hope that it is solved with ALL of the employees considered i.e. retirees, all employee groups. There would be no company had it not been for the retirees that built and maintained the company. I personally think I would rather see Northwest disolve and pay the pensions than shaft all the employees, and hobble along while just a few benefitted from it's continued operation. It is just an awful situation.