Competition in the Skies: Is Delta the Problem, or the Solution?

[swamt]

Tell you what WT.  Write the DOJ, DOT, DO-whatever, any group you want and ask, Is SWA a LCC???
Your answer will be yes they are, and you know this.  And even though SWA is starting international routes, they will be LCC for international flights as well.  I know you don't think SWA is a LCC, but I wish you luck in trying to convince the gov that SWA is not a LCC, LOL, good luck with that one...   BTW show the proof where SWA is not a LCC...

 

[robbedagain]

last time I checked   WN  VX  NK  Allegiant are all LCCs

 

[topDawg]

topDawg, please.  SWA is in fact a LCC.  They always have been, and will continue to be so. If you believe they are not a LCC please provide info saying different.
 
Delta would have not received said gates if it were narrowed down between SWA and Delta.  Delta, has not met the requirements of the DOJ's requirements in order to bid for them, and the DOJ has release a statement stating this.
 
VX is the best, so far, bidder for said gates besides SWA.  VX is considered a LCC, but they will not be able to supply the number of seats as SWA will be able to.  But, VX will be the best competitor to SWA for the gates.  This is why I say it could go either way at this point.  As we all will, stay tuned as the results will be out soon...

Not hardly. Delta Is. DOJ knows it, WN knows it, Dallas knows it.....and anyone who can read a map knows it. As normal the .gov is protecting Southwest because your company can't fight its own battles. they are scared s**tless and need the .gov to go run behind. 
 
And if WN is a LCC it is simply because they say they are. As we have seen here in Atlanta southwest cost are simply to high to really compete with Delta which is why they are cutting flights and capacity left and right. 
 
 
And if you think the DOJ was going to allow WN to have a monopoly at DAL (minus the token flights from UAL) then your really buying into the crack your company gives out way to much.....and had the DOJ done so then Delta would have taken them to court (again) and like the slot swap with US, the DOJ would have folded and WN wouldn't have gotten jack.  

 

[swamt]

Once again, show me where SWA is not a LCC, period.

 

[WorldTraveler]

it's called their earnings statement.
 
Every carrier produces one.  There is a bigger difference in CASM between DL and UA than there is between DL and WN. 
 
Can you tell me what the cutoff is for LCC? 
 
And, no, no one rationally believes it is because the DOJ says some are and others aren't. 

 

[swamt]

It easy.  Simply put.  If it weren't for LCC's the legacies would charge way more for tickets.  Where as here at LF where SWA is the most dominating carrier, ticket prices remain low.  With SWA at love field and spirit and JB (and any other LCC's) at DFW, this is why tickets are staying closer, if there were no LCC's in the N Tx market AA and Delta would be charging much, much more.  It has been proven every time LCC's have pulled out of a market or airport, the legacies always raises the prices the following day.  Also true is that as soon as a LCC announces coming into a new market and airport the prices start dropping just because of the announcement (Southwest Affect),  then after LCC starts their flights all the other airlines are "forced" to match or at least lower their fares to stay competitive. 
WT, you very well know that Delta is not a LCC and you also know SWA is the largest LCC out there that started the entire LCC category.  Just like airlines such as Spirit, are starting the new "Ultra Low Fare" category, but customers are starting to show that they do not like that system, they just don't like the nicel and diming all the time.
 
WT, yes Delta is more than likely the closest to SWA's cost out of all the legacies.  But look at how Delta had to get that close, they had to go thru BK----SWA has not and,  SWA's cost are  still lower with out putting their employees thru the hardships and rifs and concessions to get close to the same cost, and this IS the only reason why Delta is close...

 

[WorldTraveler]

hogwash.
 
WN is no more apt to cut fares today than any legacy carrier.
 
WN USED TO cut fares because they had a cost advantage over the legacy carriers that allowed them to aggressively price.
 
WN's cost advantage relative to the network carriers simply doesn't exist to any meaningful degree anymore.
 
Further, there are plenty of markets including from the N. Texas metroplex where WN has equal or higher fares to AA in markets where both carriers can serve from both markets.
 
WN hasn't used its pricing power to force fares down except where it has had to in order to try to gain market share.
 
In ATL, WN is shrinking its network because its costs no longer are low enough to effectively move share... and as much as you want to try to avoid it, it is the LOCAL market where WN is losing share, not just in passenger boardings because of connecting passengers. 
 
WN 'doesn't have 80 years of costs, much of which remained from the legacy era of the airline industry that had to be corrected in BK.
 
The fact that WN hasn't been in BK is meaningless when WN's history extends back half of the distance of the big 3 and for only a relatively few years as before deregulation. 

 

[southwind]

Sounds like someones afraid of a little competition and it ain't DL!

 

[737823]

WN loves crying underdog but the reality is at this point they are just another of the big boys in the sandbox. Structurally WN may operate differently but they aren't the humble little airline they once were.

Josh

 

[topDawg]

It easy.  Simply put.  If it weren't for LCC's the legacies would charge way more for tickets.  Where as here at LF where SWA is the most dominating carrier, ticket prices remain low.  With SWA at love field and spirit and JB (and any other LCC's) at DFW, this is why tickets are staying closer, if there were no LCC's in the N Tx market AA and Delta would be charging much, much more.  It has been proven every time LCC's have pulled out of a market or airport, the legacies always raises the prices the following day.  Also true is that as soon as a LCC announces coming into a new market and airport the prices start dropping just because of the announcement (Southwest Affect),  then after LCC starts their flights all the other airlines are "forced" to match or at least lower their fares to stay competitive. 
WT, you very well know that Delta is not a LCC and you also know SWA is the largest LCC out there that started the entire LCC category.  Just like airlines such as Spirit, are starting the new "Ultra Low Fare" category, but customers are starting to show that they do not like that system, they just don't like the nicel and diming all the time.
 
WT, yes Delta is more than likely the closest to SWA's cost out of all the legacies.  But look at how Delta had to get that close, they had to go thru BK----SWA has not and,  SWA's cost are  still lower with out putting their employees thru the hardships and rifs and concessions to get close to the same cost, and this IS the only reason why Delta is close...

your just showing how little you know about airlines. you live in the Union dream world and your making it painfully clear. 
 
I have a degree in this stuff boss. Look at the real numbers on the 2013 yearly reports for both airlines and you will see your beloved WN is less than a buck away from Delta in CASM. (and IIRC your CASM has been growing at a fast clip than Delta's. Also your Avg. fuel price is much higher too.) 
 
 
as for lower fares? you must be joking. Come to Atlanta. Compare WN's costs to Airtrans. In markets they have yet to cut(from the ass kicking they are getting from Delta) their fares are the same or more as Delta. The Southwest effect is dead and has been for years. I suggest you get of the company coolaid (and AMFA coolaid) and look at the data. Its publicly available from Southwest, Delta and the DOT.

 

[swamt]

Actually you need to get a clue and watch what happens over the next 3 years plus.  I already know the data you speak of.  ATL will be growing once the priorities of other locations are worked out.  Watch and learn for the results over the next 3-5 years...

 

[AdAstraPerAspera]

Actually you need to get a clue and watch what happens over the next 3 years plus.  I already know the data you speak of.  ATL will be growing once the priorities of other locations are worked out.  Watch and learn for the results over the next 3-5 years...

 
Wow you are basically just like WT except you shill for WN instead of DL

 

[AdAstraPerAspera]

You're the one who should get a clue: the "Southwest Effect" hasn't existed in years.
 
http://www.twincities.com/business/ci_24812852/whats-been-southwest-effect-since-airline-landed-at
 
"Across the nation, as Southwest has grown, it's stopped fitting the profile of a low-cost carrier, said Michael Boyd, an airline industry analyst. The point-to-point flying model that Southwest used in its earlier days has started to look more like the hub-and-spoke system used by legacy airlines such as Delta."
 
"In Denver, about 45 percent of Southwest's passenger traffic is catching connecting flights, he said. At Chicago's Midway airport, it's about 50 percent."
 
"Still, attracting business travelers away from large carriers such as Delta remains a challenge, in part because the low-cost carriers don't offer a big selection of international flights.



People flying for work 'want to be on Delta so they can build up frequent flier miles and they can fly to London,' said Boyd, the airline industry analyst. 'They don't want to build up (Southwest) segments so they can fly to Lubbock."'
 
"When Southwest started ramping up its service at MSP in 2008 and 2009, airfares already had dipped a little, mostly because of the recession, Peters said. Overall, 'to say fares are down due to Southwest wouldn't be accurate,' Peters said. But the increased competition from other low-fare carriers, including Sun Country, Frontier and the newest arrival, Florida-based Spirit Airlines, has offered ongoing competition on some popular routes.
On its nonstop routes where Southwest isn't the only low-cost carrier, the airline's effect on airfares isn't as noticeable, Peters said. That includes Denver, which is served by Frontier Airlines, and Phoenix, which is served by Sun Country."
 
http://airchive.com/blog/2013/07/20/has-the-spirit-effect-replaced-the-southwest-effect/
 
Has the 'Spirit Effect' replaced the 'Southwest Effect'?
 
"But since the end of the global financial crisis in 2009, the Southwest Effect has increasingly lost sway. Once a no-frills, low-cost carrier focused exclusively on point to point (p2p) flights for leisure travelers, Southwest has evolved into a network carrier with large connecting complexes in several key US cities. Its fares have rapidly risen to match those of legacy airlines like United and American,"
 
USATODAY: "Has the 'Southwest Effect' Run Its Course?"
 
Atlanta Sees 'Southwest Effect' Backfire Since AirTran Merger: http://www.star-telegram.com/2014/03/08/5630003/atlanta-sees-southwest-effect.html

 

[WorldTraveler]

there is no Southwest effect.  It is precisely because WN's best revenue growth came from being in markets that it can dominate that it is realizing that its best hope for revenue growth comes from either going into markets where it can use the historical WN effect to stimulate traffic - such as to Latin America - or to fly in limited access markets like DAL.
 
WN cannot compete effectively in highly competitive markets. Dawg gets it.  WN proved it in ATL and PHL.

 

[swamt]

WRONG again WT.
Search "Southwest Effect helps Greenville-Spartanburg International Airport"
 
This article is the latest example of the Southwest Effect.  It shows that after one year of "new" service that the airport had an increase of more than 38% in passengers and a more than 14% drop in Air fares,  "the largest decrease in the country"   The Southwest Effect is very much alive and still happening.   And it will continue to happen as it will move over and into the international routes as well.
 
The Southwest Effect is the increase in airline travel originating from a community after service from that community  is  inaugurated by Southwest airlines or another airline that improves service and lowers cost.
 
Other airlines could very well have a "Southwest Effect" in new communities, like Jet Blue has done in the past, it doesn't just have to be SWA. 
 
This article listed above was the first article I came across as of recently and after long enough service to compare to previous numbers.  There are a lot more out there but you get the point which is the Southwest Effect is still alive and will continue happen in the future, so your statement that it is dead is completely false.  You should really do some very easy research before you spout off trying to back something that isn't true...