Comair Downsizing

[smfav8r]

Taco,

Out of your whole explanation, the most important thing you came to terms with is your a pilot first and you would rather be at the bottom of a major on the 170 vs the top of CHQ's list on the same equipment.

You hit the nail on the head and your exactly right.

As a pilot, it is difficult to do anything about the desicions made by the upper brass for your company. The only thing you can really do is go to work and do the best job you can, you don't want to end up in a burning hole in the ground.

Second, this industry (any industry really) is ruthless when it comes to costs. Contract carriers have been able to undercut block hour costs due their own simplified costs. ie...no res, sometimes block hour rates are dry, insurance is sometimes covered, etc...just depends on the deal struck with the mainline carrier at the time of the agreement. The contract carrier makes money regardless of performance!!! It's cost plus...

INDY Air is finding this out very quickly!! It's whole different ball of wax when you have to pay for ever aspect of the airline.

You said that the average pax doesn't know the difference....your correct, but when the tail of said contract carrier says U/UAL/DAL and that flight is late, cancelled or god forbid crashes....who does John Q Public blame?? You got it, the mainline carrier, not the contract carrier.

This is why you have hit a sore spot with many mainline pilots...Our jobs are falling apart around us, contract carriers are picking up more of the flying with aircraft that are the same size as some mainline jets.

You say you would rather be at the bottom of a major, with the way things are going, it's not going to happen anytime soon, if ever!

It's not just about the money either, it's about the negative effect that many contract carriers have had on there codeshare major!

The once great profession is in a spin and it looks like it's unrecoverable!

 

[balloonguy]

You don't get it do you?

B)

[post="201315"][/post]​

NO, it's YOU that doesn't GET IT. pal!!

 

[SCEflyer]

Rocaduro, you beat me to it while I was typing.

I suppose I could explain my joke. I didn't think i'd have to, but....

Ask the average moron in the terminal what kind of plane they just got off of and you will likely hear something like "Boeing Airbus" "Airbus 737" "a big one" "the kind with two seats on one side and three on the other" or my personal favorite "one of those little puddle jumper things." My point is exactly what you missed. People don't give a crap about what kind of plane they ride as long as it's comfortable, on time, and basically forgettable. Ask a 50 segment a year traveller about his last trip, and the one thing he will remember is the late flight, the time he had to board off the hardstand in the rain, or the time he got bumped. He will be able to tell you nothing about the other 47 on-time, normal flights..

..CT

[post="201318"][/post]​

Just out of curiousity, why do you feel the need to denigrate a paying passenger, who might not know an Airbus from a Boeing or whatever, but is helping to pay your salary, by describing him/her as being an "...average moron"? Referring to someone in this manner reflects poorly on yourself, and your employer, as if you might care about that.

While this "moron" might not know as much as you do about your profession, he/she could be one step away from finding the cure to cancer, or AIDS or...

Think about it.

Regards,

Tom

 

[foreright]

.........so......is comair downsizing?

 

[SoldWholeSale]

I hate to say it, but Taco is right on. Maybe the entire traveling public aren't stupid, but most don't care and often do check their brain with their bag. I have a family member who is a Delta "million miler" and is exactly that person. She only remembers the last late or cancelled flight which made her miss a meeting or show late.

Taco is also correct about their rate of pay. CHQ pays at least 15-20% more per block hour for their ERJ-170 than does MidAtlantic, which IS mainline..... Taco is also correct about how passengers see the airplane, many have mistaken it for an airbus when boarding.

I cant' speak for all airlines, but U pilots caused their own demise. In 2000, they met to discuss getting more Rj's and adding them to the mainline fleet. The result of that meeting was that those "little jets" are a fad, and no mainline pilot would ever want to fly for those pay rates. They were wrong on both accounts.

I don't work for CHQ, but can tell you that as someone who travels the U system a great deal. they dont' suck. Of all of the U feeders, these guys are a class act. If you don't think so, fly two legs, both of them express, and one CHQ. CHQ crews wear for the most part neat/tidy uniforms (more than I can say for mainline these days), their flights are much more dependible (try traveling Mesa), and their crews do a nice job of conducting themselves in public.

I have flown for several regionals, am furloughed mainline, and fit to comment. As for pricing ourselves out of a job at major carriers, that isn't the case. We have "ruled" ourselves out of jobs. Those work rules are what cost money, not the rates of pay.

Deregulation, passenger expectation, fuel cost, unmanagable work rules, inflexible unions, and bad managment have brought the industry down. Not contract/code-share carriers which are allowed for in EVERY union contract. We allowed in writing with signatures of our represenatives at the bottom of the page for this to happen and it has and will continue to happen.

Best of luck to everyone in their quest to pay the mortgage and retire at 60.

S.H.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Sold is absolutely right. It is no mistake that the two airlines that were in the strongest position on 9/11 were Continental and Delta - the same two airlines at which their mainline pilots allowed management to liberally deploy RJs. It's equally observable that UA and US, which had the most restrictive RJ rules in their pilot contracts, are the ones struggling the most. DL's pilots have been very sensible in recognizing the necessity of the RJ to the airline - particularly since it has several hubs in smaller markets - without allowing the company to give away mainline flying to regional carriers. Up until 9/11, that worked. After 9/11, it allowed DL and its pilots to take much longer in dealing with its cost issue.

DL has rarely met an RJ it didn't like so I wouldn't be surprised if the CHQ E170 rumor is true. Can anyone say whether there are restrictions in the new DL pilot contract that would prohibit flying the E170 vs the CRJ70?

 

[luv2fly]

...has it occured to many of you that you've simply priced yourselved out of the market? I like how you want to blame this taco guy. Here's a guy that offers a service that customers are willing to pay for which will allow for a small profit (airlines don't make much money...even regionals) and a decent wage for him and he's the bad guy.

[post="201269"][/post]​

I has occured to me that the managment types are priced out of the market. At least the pilot types offer some tangible service in the day to day operation of the business. We transport the people from point A to point B. Drive the bus, make the donuts... you know. It is sad, but I think that most Americans are now realizing the the assault on the airlines is not a result of labor issues, but management issues.

 

[aredeeyou22]

This post is for the person who wanted to know if Comair is downsizing. The answer to your question in no. We may not be growing at the same rate as those who wish to race to the bottom, however Comair is still hiring.

 

[luvn737s]

Sold is absolutely right. It is no mistake that the two airlines that were in the strongest position on 9/11 were Continental and Delta - the same two airlines at which their mainline pilots allowed management to liberally deploy RJs. It's equally observable that UA and US, which had the most restrictive RJ rules in their pilot contracts, are the ones struggling the most.

________________________________________________________________
And the CEO's of CAL and DAL wore blue socks. Do you really see a cause and effect relationship between success and RJ proliferation? How about WN and their lack of RJ's? Air Tran dumped RJ's because they were too costly. JBlue may find that their RJ operation mimics too closely a Flyi type operation and may or may not decide to keep them. Since RJ operations are often slush funds little is known about how profitable they are. Fiduciary responsibility on the part of the mainline airlines should demand that the contracted airline pay for all expenses and absorb all risk in the start-up and operation of their sovereign airline. Only then could mainline employees (including management) make an accurate comparison between the costs of RJ's flown by contractors and those flown by the mainline.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Sold is absolutely right. It is no mistake that the two airlines that were in the strongest position on 9/11 were Continental and Delta - the same two airlines at which their mainline pilots allowed management to liberally deploy RJs. It's equally observable that UA and US, which had the most restrictive RJ rules in their pilot contracts, are the ones struggling the most.

________________________________________________________________
And the CEO's of CAL and DAL wore blue socks. Do you really see a cause and effect relationship between success and RJ proliferation? How about WN and their lack of RJ's? Air Tran dumped RJ's because they were too costly. JBlue may find that their RJ operation mimics too closely a Flyi type operation and may or may not decide to keep them. Since RJ operations are often slush funds little is known about how profitable they are. Fiduciary responsibility on the part of the mainline airlines should demand that the contracted airline pay for all expenses and absorb all risk in the start-up and operation of their sovereign airline. Only then could mainline employees (including management) make an accurate comparison between the costs of RJ's flown by contractors and those flown by the mainline.

[post="206115"][/post]​

CO and DL are network carriers, WN and JBlue are not. The latter two have built route systems that skim off the best local markets and therefore do not need to worry about serving all of the smaller cities that network carriers serve. While no one forces network carriers to serve the markets they do, the simple reality is that the network carriers operate a transportation SYSTEM while most of the LCCs flying a few select routes. Because of their lower cost and small size and their ability to build even larger hubs, RJs will now be an ongoing essential part of the network carriers business models.

DL and CO's liberal use of RJs can best explain why cities like CVG, CLE, and SLC with their small local traffic base can support the level of flights they do while PIT which has many economic similarities to CVG could not because US had relatively few RJs.

I'm sure mainline pilots will always see RJs as a threat to their livelihood. However, it truly is paranoia to believe that the costs cannot be and are not accurately reported between the two entities. The legacy airlines have all enhanced their financial reporting to report their revenues and expenses associated with regional carrier operations. Those that have owned and contracted carriers provide a clear distinction between the revenues from both as well.

Back to the original topic. Comair may not be downsizing but it and the owned regional carriers at AA and DL will have to remain cost competitive or the incentive will be too great for them to be sold so that their parent companies can contract with other carriers that will charge less and still provide high quality services.

 

[aredeeyou22]

Last year Comair made 98 mil for DL. This year should top 100. I don't mean to be wise, but did the contract carriers do the same for whatever multitude of carriers they represent? Just remember. You get what you pay for. Fly safe.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I have a lot of respect for Comair and prefer to fly with them over just about any other regional airline. Nonetheless. Chautauqua and Skywest are also very well run airlines and deliver a great product to DL. There are plenty of mainline employees that used the same argument you espouse, aredeeyou22, and are living to see that is being proven wrong. UA pilots are just as good as DL pilots when it comes to safety but yet the former have been making substantially less for several years. There is no tolerance in the airline industry for uncompetitive and inflated costs.

 

[jimntx]

This post is for the person who wanted to know if Comair is downsizing. The answer to your question in no. We may not be growing at the same rate as those who wish to race to the bottom, however Comair is still hiring.

[post="205835"][/post]​

Still hiring does not necessarily equate with growing and doing well. It may also mean that people are quitting just as fast as they are being hired. I know of at least one other regional where this is the case. If you look at the rate they hire flight attendants, you would think they are growing by leaps and bounds, but the truth is that f/as don't last very long at that particular regional. They have VERY few flight attendants with as much as 5 years on the line.

Hiring rates are not indicative of growth. Is Comair still adding new routes and acquiring new a/c? If adding new routes, are they creating this capacity by dropping other routes? If acquiring new a/c, are they retiring older planes? It is not growth if they add a CVG-ORD flight, but drop a CVG-DFW flight. It may improve revenue and/or yield, and it may be the smart thing to do from a business standpoint, but it is not "growth."

 

[aredeeyou22]

Jim, you are correct about f/a hiring. They simply do not last at the regionals. Comair is doing very well. We are not retiring any a/c. We will take delivery of a/c in the upcoming year. Not many, but some. Since DL has a large hand on us they control much of our flying. For instance, we had done a lot of ATL flying. One, of many reasons, this was in place was until ASA took delivery of new a/c. In the last few months our flying has been moved to the northeast. Is the company doing well? Yes. Is there mojor growth? No. As far as pilots leaving for other jobs, you know as well as I that only a couple are hiring. One can only hope they make the right decisions with their carear. However, the corporate avenue seems to be doing very well. This is my last stop. I like my job. I like my company. I only hope that 'all' of us can weather the storm. Fly safe.