Christmas Presents From Legacy Carriers

[goingboeing]

SWA is one of the few airlines left with good pay and benefits.This is about to change because of the union leadership and members at legacy carriers.They are rolling over and letting management take whatever they want and are not putting up any fight.
The legacy carriers are going to wind up with such cheap labor rates that even SWA will not be able to compete without cutting their employees pay and benefits.
The Christmas present from labor unions to you is lower wages and benefits but they are saving your jobs.[Brothers & Sisters !]
Merry Christmas to all.

 

[wnbubbleboy]

SWA is one of the few airlines left with good pay and benefits.This is about to change because of the union leadership and members at legacy carriers.They are rolling over and letting management take whatever they want and are not putting up any fight.
The legacy carriers are going to wind up with such cheap labor rates that even SWA will not be able to compete without cutting their employees pay and benefits.
The Christmas present from labor unions to you is lower wages and benefits but they are saving your jobs.[Brothers & Sisters !]
Merry Christmas to all.

[post="230166"][/post]​

"But for the grace of God go I." I can't blame anybody who's trying to feed his kids and keep a roof over their head.

IMHO, Our company is run at the top by people we know and have worked with at some point. Having that in place you have a bit of empathy and understanding at Midlevel and to the top of the front line jobs. There is no disconnect here. There's no MBA's overhere telling me how I can do my job better.

The thing that bothers me about the bankrupt carriers is Jurisdiction. How can a Bankruptcy Judge decide labor issues?

 

[WNjetdoc]

Thats cool, we will have our pay cut by 20% then be lower than y'alls still. Then you guys will have to take another paycut and be working for free....sweet!

 

[swflyer]

I think this topic is misguided, and not very supportive of our brother and sister aviators at other airlines (speaking mostly of the tone of the first post)

Good pay/benefits and surviving airlines are NOT mutually exclusive terms. The difference is the productivity of employees and airplanes. American, Delta, and I believe United are all trying 'de-hubbing', keeping their planes moving rather than waiting on connecting banks.

I also remember American announcing the idea of keeping flight crews with the same aircraft for their duty day, increasing productivity and reducing time wasted changing a/c.

Both are ideas that have served Southwest well, and may help the bottom lines of these 'legacy' carriers.

 

[goingboeing]

I think this topic is misguided, and not very supportive of our brother and sister aviators at other airlines (speaking mostly of the tone of the first post)

Good pay/benefits and surviving airlines are NOT mutually exclusive terms. The difference is the productivity of employees and airplanes. American, Delta, and I believe United are all trying 'de-hubbing', keeping their planes moving rather than waiting on connecting banks.

I also remember American announcing the idea of keeping flight crews with the same aircraft for their duty day, increasing productivity and reducing time wasted changing a/c.

Both are ideas that have served Southwest well, and may help the bottom lines of these 'legacy' carriers.

[post="230285"][/post]​

If you would simply compare the wages and benefits of 4 years ago with the current wages and benefits you would understand my posting.[UAL-USAir-AA-Delta]
It is easy for someone who has received pay increases recently to sit on a high horse with an ideal view of legacy airlines.
If you do not work at AA you have no idea what the concessions have done to employee morale and the divisions they have caused.

17.5 % PAY CUT
LOSS of 5 Payed Vacation Days
LOSS of 5 Payed Holidays
LOSS of 5 payed sick days
1/2 Pay for first 2 consecutive sick days
and a whole lot more

The employees at UAL and UsAir will have taken close to a 50% pay cut the past 4 years and possible LOSS of their RETIREMENT.
SO you should consider taking off your rose colored glasses and get a clearer picture of what is going on at legacy carriers.

 

[swflyer]

The legacy carriers are going to wind up with such cheap labor rates that even SWA will not be able to compete without cutting their employees pay and benefits.

SO you should consider taking off your rose colored glasses and get a clearer picture of what is going on at legacy carriers.

[post="230327"][/post]​

You made some pretty bold predictions of how legacy carrier troubles would trickle down and hurt SWA in the future. Concessions at the legacy carriers, already came to the bargaining table in recent contract discussions with workgroups at SWA, but gains were made because of the strong connection between productivity and profitability.

IMHO, there are systemic differences between SWA and the legacies which make your jaded, bitter posts untrue.

Conversly, the latest flight attendant negotiation took legacy management's ability to point to SWA, as a lower paid example, away.

I'm constantly amazed that, when talking about how they have to get costs down, legacy management seems to be solely focused on labor costs, rather than addressing the whole of their system, other than the examples I cited.

My post sincerely meant I wouldn't wish their losses on any of the hard-working employees at ANY carrier. I read your post as an attack, a bitter expression of frustration, and you're right, I'm not mentallly where you are.

Merry Christmas.

 

[foreright]

SWA is one of the few airlines left with good pay and benefits.This is about to change because of the union leadership and members at legacy carriers.They are rolling over and letting management take whatever they want and are not putting up any fight.
The legacy carriers are going to wind up with such cheap labor rates that even SWA will not be able to compete without cutting their employees pay and benefits.
The Christmas present from labor unions to you is lower wages and benefits but they are saving your jobs.[Brothers & Sisters !]
Merry Christmas to all.

[post="230166"][/post]​

Please.....Its called survival, we now have to adapt to the quote unquote business model of your taxicab carrier. Maybe if this point to point low cost BS hadnt started you wouldnt have to cut into your inflated check.
oh yeah....merry christmas to you too.

 

[WNjetdoc]

Ok, now we're a "taxicab carrier"? I thought we were the "Greyhound carrier", or the "Walmart airline"? LMAO.

Your post is so bitter, I feel for you pal, I really do, but we are not the cause of your problems.

The automakers in America had to adapt, other corporations in America have had to adapt to change, now the airlines are forced to. Its hurting the so called LC, but what are we supposed to do?

You guys are old outdated dinosaurs and are just now starting to change, is it too late? Only time will tell. BTW, your crap about our so called, "bloated paychecks" is a classic, you should hear yourself, its pathetic. :down:

Please.....Its called survival, we now have to adapt to the quote unquote business model of your taxicab carrier. Maybe if this point to point low cost BS hadnt started you wouldnt have to cut into your inflated check.
oh yeah....merry christmas to you too.

[post="230381"][/post]​

 

[markkus757]

You can only compare apple with other apples. SW's productivity is the difference-maker. Those charts are worthless unless you take productivity into consideration. I have never seen captains at AA, CO, DL, NW, etc throw bags. Southwest pilots throw bags if that is what it takes to get a flight out on time. The only variable going forward that can hurt SW is going to be fuel starting mid 2006. It won't $26/barrel after that.

 

[ramper_in_las]

It won't $26/barrel after that.

just to put my two cents in. Just because WN is the only airline in the industry that can hedge fuel will always give them the competative edge.

 

[WNjetdoc]

You can only compare apple with other apples. SW's productivity is the difference-maker. Those charts are worthless unless you take productivity into consideration. I have never seen captains at AA, CO, DL, NW, etc throw bags. Southwest pilots throw bags if that is what it takes to get a flight out on time. The only variable going forward that can hurt SW is going to be fuel starting mid 2006. It won't $26/barrel after that.

[post="230490"][/post]​

You are on the right trail Markkus. The pilots are not the only group to throw bags or help out other departments. When Im coming down the jetway, back to the ramp, I will almost always grab a stroller or whatever and bring it over to the bag bin. The rampers always thank me too.

I've helped F/A's cross seatbelts or helped Provo move boxes, etc, there are other examples like that from all employee groups. I can say when I was at U it seemed that employee groups didn't co-mingle much. It could've been me, I dunno, but I didn't see it very much either. On any gate call I went on at U the pilots were usually very professional, but also distant. They were not friendly, at least thats what I got out of it while over there.

At SWA when I go to the cockpit, the crew up there is on the same level as me and we communicate as such. Our crews are great and they are also professional but friendly and easy to talk about the problem with the airplane or what they did over the weekend.

All in all we have on hell of a great crew at SWA and I hope we keep it that way, regardless if the employees at other airlines like it or understand it.

 

[firstamendment]

You are on the right trail Markkus. The pilots are not the only group to throw bags or help out other departments. When Im coming down the jetway, back to the ramp, I will almost always grab a stroller or whatever and bring it over to the bag bin. The rampers always thank me too.

I've helped F/A's cross seatbelts or helped Provo move boxes, etc, there are other examples like that from all employee groups. I can say when I was at U it seemed that employee groups didn't co-mingle much. It could've been me, I dunno, but I didn't see it very much either. On any gate call I went on at U the pilots were usually very professional, but also distant. They were not friendly, at least thats what I got out of it while over there.

At SWA when I go to the cockpit, the crew up there is on the same level as me and we communicate as such. Our crews are great and they are also professional but friendly and easy to talk about the problem with the airplane or what they did over the weekend.

All in all we have on hell of a great crew at SWA and I hope we keep it that way, regardless if the employees at other airlines like it or understand it.

[post="230595"][/post]​

Ok, I have to differ with some of what is said here. I know things are rough over here at U, but I think our crews...f/a's and pilots..work very well together. Remember, we are the only other carrier (correct me if I'm wrong) where the flight crews stay together. I know one of your former U employees stated the cockpit was "cool" to enter, but I have been around here for 18 years and can tell you that we probably have the best CRM because of that. I think it is silly to act as if EVERYONE at SWA is happy, happy, happy, and everyone at U is miserable or gives a "cool" receiption to fellow workers. I worked for Piedmont 2 years before they were bought by U and I remember going through 4 groups of pilots in one day. I didn't know if they were coming or going. When U took control, the rules changed. Perhaps the former U pilot came upon some ex PI pilot who still couldn't adjust. Frankly, the same crew on the trip policy is about the ONLY thing this company has done correctly. AND, we stay at the same hotels. Most of our flight crews get along very well AND considering what we have all gone through. I am continually impressed with the way our crews conduct themselves.

As far as helping out with one another, i AGREE THAT YOU GUYS DO THAT THE BEST. All the carriers could learn from a predominately unionized group that works TOGETHER, as opposed to the divide and conguer mentallity we have at U. There is a difference in philosophy here. I agree with the SWA philosophy, which, as I see it states that top priority is to get that flight turned and out on time. At U, certain labor groups feel threatened that if ,say the flight attendants help clean the aircraft, the company will see them as not essential and move to get rid of them. The utility guys fail to see that nobody is not going to fault some one or penilyze the other for helping to get a flight out on time. Also, the mentality is "we don't do your job, don't do ours."

It wouldn't hurt fellow employees to help clean airplane or pilots to swing a few bags.

But, please do not paint our crews in the way I have seen here. You guys have great leadership. Hope and pray that you guys don't forget the things that make you work.

Happy holidays to all of you.

 

[JS]

just to put my two cents in. Just because WN is the only airline in the industry that can hedge fuel will always give them the competative edge.

[post="230570"][/post]​

Hedging fuel does no good if the price stays the same, and you lose money hedging if the price drops.

 

[Fly]

I only fly internationally but we always stay with our crews too. (Domestic is a different story) Come on, think of how boring the layovers would be if we didn't go out partying with the pilots! THIS is a message board, which may come off as if we fight constantly....I can assure you, that is the farthest thing from the truth. We luv each other, most of the time! :wub:

 

[firstamendment]

I only fly internationally but we always stay with our crews too. (Domestic is a different story) Come on, think of how boring the layovers would be if we didn't go out partying with the pilots! THIS is a message board, which may come off as if we fight constantly....I can assure you, that is the farthest thing from the truth. We luv each other, most of the time! :wub:

[post="231171"][/post]​

Ok, Fly, so you said it better and shorter. Cheers, thanks alot!!