Can you believe THIS?

You know LCC...I was watching a show the other day called "the half ton man". It was a series on obesity in America. And yes, they had a half ton man on there, who claimed that he ate no more than anyone else...that it was "genetic". Yet his own parents said that at age 4 (when he weighed 84 pounds) that he could eat an adult serving of a meal and still be hungry. There was another man interviewed who said something a lot of "larger" people seem to be unable to accept...he said whether it was gentetics or overeating...he was the cause of his problem...and he was the only one who could bring it under control.

You mention that no other airline has recognized that the human fanny has become bigger over the past decades....why not implore your company to lead the way...make your 737's 2x2 seating and market the hell out of it. Heck, while your at it, why not accomodate folks like me and take a couple of rows out to increae my legroom? Could it be that they haven't changed the seating configuration because they recognized that while the human fanny has grown, the vast majority of the travelling public still fit into an airliner seat with relative ease?

Your airline values their "preferred customers"...does your accomodation plan for "customers of size" mean that you are willing to bump a million miler out of his upgraded first class seat to accomodate the once a year passenger who will only fit in a first class seat, but paid the 21 day advance, travel on a Tuesday coach class loss leader fare?

I don't see arrogance from the SWA employees (I'm not one BTW)...the other airlines told an organization protesting SWA's policy that they wouldn't charge for 2 seats....unless another passenger complained and no one would volunteer to change seats...and if not, they'd be put on another flight...and hope against hope that that flight wasn't full and that the next seatmate would be too shy to complain. If they couldn't do that, then they'd try to accomodate them at a slightly higher cost by either selling them a second coach seat or bumping them to first class. But that would involve an extra cost. Which is more humiliating...being asked one on one by a gate agent to purchase a second seat, or having an FA make an announcement over the PA, requesting someone to trade seats to sit next to the person of size? Southwest waited for other customers to complain....those customers complained...not to the FA, but to corporate headquarters. And a policy was made that would try to insure the comfort of all passengers.
 
The problem is one of subjectivity... and so long as the policy is defined by one big gray area, there will be problems. Many of these COS situations I hear about involve people who have traveled recently, or are even on their return trip, and had no problem on the first leg. So how come now, 48 or 72 hours later, somebody is saying a COS needs to pay for an extra seat? Afterall, they weren't a COS a few days ago.... It opens the agent or FA up to liability, simply because the observation is subjective, and there is no clear policy.

I cannot argue with what the SWA employees here are saying. Without being derogatory, i.e. referring to any passenger as cargo, etc., the fact of the matter is that each passenger is entitled to the space that they reserved on the aircraft, and they deserve to not have that space infringed upon. If you can't fit into the space you've bought, then you can't travel in it either. It's a sad reality, but like most things in life, the truth sometimes really hurts.
 
The problem is one of subjectivity... and so long as the policy is defined by one big gray area, there will be problems. Many of these COS situations I hear about involve people who have traveled recently, or are even on their return trip, and had no problem on the first leg. So how come now, 48 or 72 hours later, somebody is saying a COS needs to pay for an extra seat? Afterall, they weren't a COS a few days ago.... It opens the agent or FA up to liability, simply because the observation is subjective, and there is no clear policy.
Maybe it's passenger education. SWA's policy was to encourage someone who really needs a second seat to buy a second seat when they make their reservation. If the flight isn't full...they get a refund of the second seat. No emabarassment. And the issue is getting someone to admit that they might not be too comfy in an airliner seat unless the armrest is raised before they make their reservations.

The problem as I see it is that SWA has some employee's making the "judgement call" at the gate because they can see that the load on this particular outbound flight is quite light...why bother with charging them for the seat and then having the customer go thru the bother of getting the refund? On the other hand, if the flight is full, there really isn't a second seat available to sell. If the return flight is nearly full, and there could possibly be some stand-by's or walk ups, or someone being accomodated from a late or missed connection, then for everyone's comfort, they need to buy a second seat. I guess it's a situation where allowing the employee to "bend the rules" can come back to bite them....hence the "I didn't have to pay on my outbound flight..."

How can it be anything other than subjective? Sitting at home on the internet, booking my ticket, there isn't a box that asks "are you fat"? A reservations agent on the phone can't see the customer, nor do they ask "do you need two seats". So it's up to the gate agent to make that "subjective" call. That's the first time anyone sees the actual size of the customer. It ain't a perfect system, but IMHO, it's better than someone ringing the FA call button and requesting a seat change on a flight that is packed to the gills.
 
The problem is one of subjectivity... and so long as the policy is defined by one big gray area, there will be problems. Many of these COS situations I hear about involve people who have traveled recently, or are even on their return trip, and had no problem on the first leg. So how come now, 48 or 72 hours later, somebody is saying a COS needs to pay for an extra seat?

I'm not a WN employee so what I am saying here is speculative.

I think it has a lot to do with (a) whether or not a flight is full and (B) the fact that WN empowers gate agents and other employees to make decisions.

If you have an obese person boarding a flight, but the flight only has 71 passengers on it (137 capacity) then you are probably going to let the passenger go ahead and fly, knowing that there are plenty of empty seats.

Supporting this view is the company's stated policy that if a passenger is forced to buy a second seat, and it turns out the flight had empty seats available, then the customer purchasing the second seat may apply for a refund.

Why create a deal where a passenger has to seek a refund when you know, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the flight is not going to be full? Why bother to spoil someone's day by suggesting to them that they are obese enough to need two seats when you have a plane only 55% full?

You can spin this one any way you want but you always get the same final result - in this case, Southwest is right. I've been on the other end on another carrier, and it's not pretty.

About 2.5 yrs ago I was flying SAN-PHX-ELP and because it was a Friday afternoon and a busy time of year, Southwest was full. I was booked on HP.

HP was operating a "Barbie Dream Jet" RJ and my assigned seat (ooooh the luxury of seat assignments) was the window on the right side of the aircraft, very last row.

When I boarded, I found that the gentleman in the aisle, very last row, weighed roughly 450 lbs and already had the arm rest up.

I asked him to please put the arm rest down, before I would take my seat. He refused, saying that he was unable to fit in the seat unless the armrest was up.

I continued to stand in the aisle because I had no intention of sharing my already limited space with roughly 80 lbs of lard. (my best estimate of how much 'spill-over' there was)

Finally, the Flight Attendant walks down the aisle to advise me that I need to go ahead and sit down, I was delaying push back.

I told the FA that I was unable to be seated until the gentleman in the aisle seat lowered the armrest to give me full and unrestricted access to the seat I had paid for.

This line of reasoning got us nowhere, and finally the FA told me I had two choices - I could sit in the seat with the armrest up, or I could deplane and be put on stand by for a later flight.

I elected to deplane, but I did not go the standby on HP route. I took a full refund of my ticket (it was full Y fare) and went over to WN and told them what had happened and they managed to find me a routing SAN-LAS-ABQ-ELP and that's how I got home that evening. I haven't patronized HP since.

So, the knife cuts both ways. There are obese passengers who might get in a snit when they have to buy a 2nd seat. By the same token, there are svelte passengers who get annoyed when denied access to all of our seat by an obese passenger. How you handle one of these deals certainly has a lot to do with who one chooses for future travel needs.
 
You mention that no other airline has recognized that the human fanny has become bigger over the past decades....why not implore your company to lead the way...make your 737's 2x2 seating and market the hell out of it. Heck, while your at it, why not accomodate folks like me and take a couple of rows out to increae my legroom? Could it be that they haven't changed the seating configuration because they recognized that while the human fanny has grown, the vast majority of the travelling public still fit into an airliner seat with relative ease?


I would love to see the seat configurations change for heavy AND tall people. It's a shame there aren't 2/2 seats like the ones on Amtrak, but until Boeing/Airbus make a plane that is cheap to run with that many less seat, it won't happen. And US is as thrifty as they come. We only lead in cutting service, not adding.
 
I cannot argue with what the SWA employees here are saying. Without being derogatory, i.e. referring to any passenger as cargo, etc., the fact of the matter is that each passenger is entitled to the space that they reserved on the aircraft, and they deserve to not have that space infringed upon. If you can't fit into the space you've bought, then you can't travel in it either. It's a sad reality, but like most things in life, the truth sometimes really hurts.


I'm not discriminatory nor derogatory when I refer to passengers as "cargo." From the purely economic viewpoint, the airplane doesn't know anything about the load it's carrying other than it takes more fuel to move a heavier weight. Thus, whether that load consists of Dell computers from Austin or "Austin the Magnificient" only changes the equation of how much physical space that package requires. FedEx and UPS make tons of money because their packages don't mind being stacked three deep in dark cargo holds. On the other hand, "98.6° heating units" have much more restrictive demands.

Air travel in the US is truly a bargain no matter how you look at it. To go from Oakland to Kansas City a 300-pound person that needs two seats can do the trip for $598 (highest fare available). Meanwhile, shipping 3-100 lb boxes from OAK to MCI via FedEx runs over $900. (FedEx won't even accept a single pacakge weighing that much!)
 
I think a worse and far more uncomfortable problem, as well as a health issue, is the way airlines are cramming more seats into each airplane. There's barely room to cross ones legs. DVT (deep vein thrombosis) is getting be more of problem.

It's a real problem with life and death consequences.

Wait until the first lawsuit on "economy class syndrome" is won. :ph34r:

Dea
 
If an airline can charge for excess baggage and overweight bags, they can make someone pay for two seats if there is a need for it. I bet if a poll was to be conducted, no one would want to sit next to a person that big during a flight.
 
Sorry, the message I get? We only LUV you if you are an appropriate size and have no medical problems. Oh, I'm sorry, obesity is a choice. Real classy SWA.


This particular case though was brought by a litigous person who's real agenda was racial discrimination. Please take a look at the other topic that this subject is being discussed.
http://www.usaviation.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=26695

"Even if you're the only black person on a flight . . . you still can't prove race," Thompson said after the verdict. "If they don't fix these problems with their policy, other people are going to come at them."

Thompson also felt she was disadvantaged by the all-white jury. Her lawyer, Neil Osborne, said he believed that her lawsuit is the furthest a discrimination case against Southwest has gotten.

Now to address the issue at hand sick or obese people.

Sadly in my time here I have helped MX pull medical supplies for aircraft where two pax had died enroute. Is the risk of traveling on an aircraft when your unhealthy worth your life?

I have been Red Cross certified to administer first aid in the past. Our instructor who was a paramedic informed us that if your not breaking ribs as you give CPR your are not pushing hard enough.

Who wants to deal with that on a flight from BWI to MCO?

Needless to say being overwieght has REAL complications like Diabetes; High Blood pressure; heart disease to name a few. Pile on the added stress of cramming your self into on seat next to two strangers who knows what could happen.

Buying a second seat HAS to reduce the Stress level for that person. Regardless of Price, one's life is always more important.
 
American and Delta reps indicated to her that if another passenger complained, the FA would try to find a volunteer to trade seats. If none could be found, the "customer of size" would be placed on the next filight out.


Doesn't work that way at Delta.
I was put in a center seat between two l-a-r-g-e guys. I said something to the F/A who informed me that the flight was full, so quietly taking another seat wasn't possible. She said I could stay behind if I wished, but that nothing would be said to the two people taking up all three seats for fear of a discrimination lawsuit.

MB
 
Before everyone starts defendng SWA and bashing the fat person, really read what was written. Although a bit too long, there are alot of good points brought up that I feel will be overlooked. I feel for this person because I feel overweight or fat people are the easiest discriminated. While I would highly suggest an obese person (way obese) not sit in the exit row, I feel we need to understand that obesity is a HUGE ( no pun intented) problem in our country and we need to find a better solution besides proclaiming that one only put down the donuts or go on a diet. If we as an industry can offer big girl wheelchairs, there should be one or two oversized seats for the extremely obese..but the airlines would NEVER give up 2 seats for this God forbid.
I understand your sentiment, but, coddling overweight people is not the answer either. Obesity is a serious issue. It is bad for ones' health, not to mention the money it costs in medical bills. Our society needs to take a stronger stance in pushing for some kind of action to CURB obesity, not baby it! At what point did this woman feel she had ate one too many donuts, or one too many shakes? At what point did she realize her clothing size was getting bigger and bigger? If the airlines offer overweight people two seats for the price of one, they also create an unfairness to normal weight people. Will people who watch their weight be able to get a discount, or will they have to pay regular price? We can't allow society to accept obesity as a "norm". We can't afford to let society just sweep it under the rug. It is an issue that needs attention now. Also, this person is claiming race as a factor. This woman is far-reaching, nothing more. I support SWA in its policies.
 
meatmichfest.jpg


If this is the woman in question, and she has not lost a fair amount of weight since this picture, then I think SWA did the right thing. Is that discrimination against people of size, not really. It is a question of space, and this woman admits to needing more than her fair share. Imagine, if she and an equally large person travelled together and you were stuck in the center seat between them on a transcon fligth. I think that would be most uncomfortable.

SWA has a policy about these kinds of events, she is welcome to buy two seats and if the flight is not full, the cost of one seat will be refunded.

Yes, obesity is a problem in the world, but unless you are disabled and hence unable to excercise or have a medically low diagnosed metabolism, then the fault sadly is your own.
Most obesity is caused by OFS, overactive fork syndrome, bad diet and a severe lack of any kind of excercise.
 

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