Another Way Of Doing Business

[jimntx]

you can believe about 10% of what the self promoting Mr. Bethune says. It's easy to get to #1 in on-time performance. just pad your schedule.

[post="251806"][/post]​

Self-promoting or not (and how many U.S. CEOs are not), results are what matters. At CO, this is the FIRST concessions that the company has asked from their employees since 9/11. They have had a minimum of employee layoffs compared to the other legacies. The company made the wild-a**sed decision to cut costs everywhere EXCEPT employee salaries and benefits before now (What kind of irresponsible management decision is that? ) CO has the kind of employee relations that enables them to reach TAs with their unions without a lot of spewing in the press by both sides. Can the same be said of USAIR, UAL, or AA?

And, were you saying that AA and U never pad their their block times to improve on-time performance? I know that AA lists SAT-DFW at 1 hr, 7 minutes. Actual flying time is rarely more than 35 minutes. What's the other 32 minutes for? I mean other than the uncertainty of gate availability when you get to DFW--but that's different, isn't it?

United shows LGA-IAD at 1.15 for the 6:25am flight, but increases to 1.23 for the 1230pm flight. SWA shows BWI-ISP at either 55 minutes or 1 hour all day long.
Is there not just a teensy bit of schedule-padding on UALs part to allow for congestion at LGA?

IMHO, there was sentence in the article overlooked by everyone else that indicates the true class of CO management. "Wage and benefit reductions for airport, cargo, reservations, Chelsea food services, management and clerical employees were scheduled to take effect today. However, these reductions will be deferred until the end of March to coincide with other work groups' reductions."

What a concept! Even though it would have been perfectly legal for the company to reduce the wages of the mentioned groups today, the management seem to have this weird idea that the FAIR thing to do would be reduce all salaries at the same time.

 

[Busdrvr]

"IMHO, there was sentence in the article overlooked by everyone else that indicates the true class of CO management. "Wage and benefit reductions for airport, cargo, reservations, Chelsea food services, management and clerical employees were scheduled to take effect today. However, these reductions will be deferred until the end of March to coincide with other work groups' reductions."

What a concept! Even though it would have been perfectly legal for the company to reduce the wages of the mentioned groups today, the management seem to have this weird idea that the FAIR thing to do would be reduce all salaries at the same time."

Or maybe they don't want those employees to see the benefit of being in a Union.... $5 today to save $10 tomorrow.

At CO, this is the FIRST concessions that the company has asked from their employees since 9/11. They have had a minimum of employee layoffs compared to the other legacies.

Could it be that some work groups were already working for wages significantly below the pre-concessionary levels of pay at UAL, DAL and AMR? Nah couldn't be that..

And if you look at the DOH of the pilots furloughed at CAL, it was pretty close to that at UAL, and much earlier than DAL. tough to furlough a guy you never hired (due to the already inplace "concessionary" work rules and wages at Cal pre-911).

CO has the kind of employee relations that enables them to reach TAs with their unions without a lot of spewing in the press by both sides.

Nah, I think it's more the fact that they have a significant presence at the top of the seniority lists (ie, "company men") that would p1ss on themselves if Gordo said "BOO".
<_<

 

[jimntx]

Could it be that some work groups were already working for wages significantly below the pre-concessionary levels of pay at UAL, DAL and AMR?  Nah couldn't be that..

[post="251847"][/post]​

Maybe try checking facts first rather than assume that what was true after the last bankruptcy almost 15 years ago is still true. I only know about the flight attendants; so, that is all I will mention. Since 9/11, the CO flight attendants have received every single scheduled raise in their current contract. As of the last raise (01DEC04), the top of scale for a domestic f/a at CO is several dollars/hr higher than TOS for domestic f/as at AA, UAL, or UAIR. So, the concessions are coming from a higher level of pay than at the other legacies.

Nah, I think it's more the fact that they have a significant presence at the top of the seniority lists (ie, "company men") that would p1ss on themselves if Gordo said "BOO".

I can only assume that you are talking about the pilot group. As far as the flight attendants--the area I know for sure--that group includes people who have not yet reached 5 years with the company. A friend of mine started as a flight attendant at CO 2 months after I started at AA in 2000. However, because he has never been furloughed--as I was for 16.5 months--he is approaching 5 years with CO. I just past my "adjusted" seniority date, giving me 3 years with AA. Doesn't seem wildly "senior" to me.

 

[aafsc]

Maybe try checking facts first rather than assume that what was true after the last bankruptcy almost 15 years ago is still true. I only know about the flight attendants; so, that is all I will mention. Since 9/11, the CO flight attendants have received every single scheduled raise in their current contract. As of the last raise (01DEC04), the top of scale for a domestic f/a at CO is several dollars/hr higher than TOS for domestic f/as at AA, UAL, or UAIR. So, the concessions are coming from a higher level of pay than at the other legacies.
I can only assume that you are talking about the pilot group. As far as the flight attendants--the area I know for sure--that group includes people who have not yet reached 5 years with the company. A friend of mine started as a flight attendant at CO 2 months after I started at AA in 2000. However, because he has never been furloughed--as I was for 16.5 months--he is approaching 5 years with CO. I just past my "adjusted" seniority date, giving me 3 years with AA. Doesn't seem wildly "senior" to me.

[post="251850"][/post]​

Continental is still alive today because of what Texas Air, under Lorenzo, did to EAL. They transferred EAL's assets (planes, SODA computer system, gates, and slots) to CO paying EA significantly less than they were worth. For the longest time, the CO employees made half of what the other airlines' employees made, and very little if any vacation, benefits, pensions, etc. The also had, and still have, most of their maintanence and ramp contracted out. During this time the employees had no morale. We all heard of the stories about them being ashamed to be seen in their CO uniform. Then Bethune enters the picture with his plan. One of the things he does is bring the employees' wages (those whose job did not get outsourced) up just under the other legacies. Some might be making a little more now, but for years and years they made way less. Also, in regards to CO's finances, they have nothing left to borrow against.

 

[jimntx]

Then Bethune enters the picture with his plan. One of the things he does is bring the employees' wages (those whose job did not get outsourced) up just under the other legacies. Some might be making a little more now, but for years and years they made way less. Also, in regards to CO's finances, they have nothing left to borrow against.

[post="251969"][/post]​

But that was my point. Yes, it USED TO BE BAD at CO. Emphasis on the past tense. We used to service the DFW-SAT route with a covered wagon, and SWA only flew between Dallas and Houston; but, times change you know. I find it ludicrous that people try to tear down the excellent employee relations and the topnotch management that CO enjoys today by hashing and re-hashing how it used to be. How it used to be has no bearing on today.

And, I don't know what you call "a little more," but from my perspective as a flight attendant, I would say someone making an almost 10% premium is not a "little more." I may be wrong about the exact dollar amounts, but TOS at CO is $48 or 49 something/hr. TOS at AA is around $44 or $45/hr. IIRC, TOS at both UAL and U is below AA.

 

[aafsc]

But that was my point. Yes, it USED TO BE BAD at CO. Emphasis on the past tense. We used to service the DFW-SAT route with a covered wagon, and SWA only flew between Dallas and Houston; but, times change you know. I find it ludicrous that people try to tear down the excellent employee relations and the topnotch management that CO enjoys today by hashing and re-hashing how it used to be. How it used to be has no bearing on today.

And, I don't know what you call "a little more," but from my perspective as a flight attendant, I would say someone making an almost 10% premium is not a "little more." I may be wrong about the exact dollar amounts, but TOS at CO is $48 or 49 something/hr. TOS at AA is around $44 or $45/hr. IIRC, TOS at both UAL and U is below AA.

[post="251984"][/post]​

What was TOS at AA and CO before the 2003 concessions for F/As?

 

[jimntx]

What was TOS at AA and CO before the 2003 concessions for F/As?

[post="251988"][/post]​

In 2003, TOS at AA was about what it is at CO now--around $48/hr. At the time of the RPA at AA, CO f/as were due 2 more raises in their current contract--01DEC03 and 01DEC04. I'm not sure of the amount of each of those raises, but I would guess that CO f/as were probably at what AA is at now. And, there will be no chance of increasing the TOS at AA until at least 2008! The RPA was for 5 years.

But, then you are still talking about what used to be. Well, before the RPA, I was making almost $27/hr on the 3-yr pay scale. As of January this year, I am now on the 4 year scale and I make less than $23.50/hr. I don't know where you shop, but the Albertson's in my neighborhood could care less what I was making in 2003. They want to know if my check will bounce or pay today.

 

[Borescope]

You come off aafsc as a person who still holds a grudge from the past. Or is it that you are a little jellous of the people at CO who have good relations with their management? What ever it is you need to move on and forget about what happened in the past as you can't change history. Concentrate on something you have control over like a bowel movement.

 

[aafsc]

You come off aafsc as a person who still holds a grudge from the past. Or is it that you are a little jellous of the people at CO who have good relations with their management? What ever it is you need to move on and forget about what happened in the past as you can't change history. Concentrate on something you have control over like a bowel movement.

[post="252027"][/post]​

Comparisons of compensation was discussed in this thread. My previous post was intended to show the history of CO to people on this board who was not aware of it. And hell no I am not jealous of CO employees who have "good" relations with their management. The facade of "good" relations stems from the fact that the CO people were for years compensated siginificantly below(60% less) the other airlines, they were treated like #### ( remember the shame in wearing a CO uniform), and most of their work farmed out (What is you AMT to aircraft ratio?). Then Bethune comes in and brings you just below the other airline employees are making.
So it is only a matter of perpective. It would be like an allied soldier offering a decent meal to a holocost survivor after the concentration camp has been liberated. To the soldier the decent meal is no big deal, but to the emaciated survivor, it is a miracle. Even though many years have passed and unions are back on the property at CO, most of the employees of the other airlines still consider CO a scab outfit. So the next time I am on the toilet, I'll be thinking of you scab!

 

[jimntx]

Even though many years have passed and unions are back on the property at CO, most of the employees of the other airlines still consider CO a scab outfit.

[post="252097"][/post]​

Oh, really. I am an AA employee. I have close friends at DL, UAL, and U. You are the FIRST person I have ever heard refer to CO employees as scabs. Don't you want to modify that statement to say "...most still bitter ex-Eastern employees at other airlines..."?

If Eastern had been a profitable airline, Lorenzo would have never been able to buy it. Eastern was on the way out anyway. Lorenzo just speeded up the timetable a little.

 

[mweiss]

Lorenzo just speeded up the timetable a little.

[post="252119"][/post]​

The analogy would be hooking up a blood donation kit to a person who is hemmorhaging, in order to have more blood for someone else. It's still pretty ugly.

 

[aafsc]

Oh, really. I am an AA employee. I have close friends at DL, UAL, and U. You are the FIRST person I have ever heard refer to CO employees as scabs. Don't you want to modify that statement to say "...most still bitter ex-Eastern employees at other airlines..."?

If Eastern had been a profitable airline, Lorenzo would have never been able to buy it. Eastern was on the way out anyway. Lorenzo just speeded up the timetable a little.

[post="252119"][/post]​

I have heard others (non ex-EAL) refer to them as scabs. Ex-EAL people may say it MORE than the others simply because Lorenzo stripped EAL for the benefit of his non-union SCAB CO. Laborwise, CO will always have that soiled reputation. And FYI, EAL (Borman) paid Lorenzo to make an offer for EAL.
EAL was a very asset rich company that could not make money because of pi$$ poor management. Just to give you two examples, they would run L-10-11s (by far the most expensive aircraft to operate) all day between South Florida and the New York area airports while charging $49 dollar fares. They would also send L-10-11s empty from MIA to the Bahamas.

 

[Borescope]

EAL was a very asset rich company that could not make money because of pi$$ poor management. Just to give you two examples, they would run L-10-11s (by far the most expensive aircraft to operate) all day between South Florida and the New York area airports while charging $49 dollar fares. They would also send L-10-11s empty from MIA to the Bahamas.

[post="252129"][/post]​

Sounds much like the airlines of today. Nothing has changed has it? Maybe we need another "Lorenzo" to come in and pick off a couple of the weaker carriers to allow the better run ones to survive. Who do you suggest should run it......Wolf, Crandell, Carty or perhaps Lorenzo himself?

 

[aafsc]

Sounds much like the airlines of today. Nothing has changed has it? Maybe we need another "Lorenzo" to come in and pick off a couple of the weaker carriers to allow the better run ones to survive. Who do you suggest should run it......Wolf, Crandell, Carty or perhaps Lorenzo himself?

[post="252141"][/post]​

One of the achievements of the EAL people was the success of having Lorenzo banished from the industry for good. As for running AA, I would pick Crandall. Although he was ruthless (not only to labor but everyone else he dealt with) AA was a very successful company under his leadership and I made decent pay with all my vacation and holidays. As for the future, I think things will happen this year because the industry can't go on like this for much longer. In my opinion, we will see consolidation either thru liquidations or mergers. Given the fact that UA and US are being propped up I think it will be very close but I think it will happen thru mergers.

 

[Vikedog64]

One of the achievements of the EAL people was the success of having Lorenzo banished from the industry for good. As for running AA, I would pick Crandall. Although he was ruthless (not only to labor but everyone else he dealt with) AA was a very successful company under his leadership and I made decent pay with all my vacation and holidays. As for the future, I think things will happen this year because the industry can't go on like this for much longer. In my opinion, we will see consolidation either thru liquidations or mergers. Given the fact that UA and US are being propped up I think it will be very close but I think it will happen thru mergers.

[post="252221"][/post]​

I agree. I see Dal and NWA because of little overlap and Skyteam. As for the rest, to me Amr is probably big enough to stand on it's own. Any vision on where CAL fits into this?