Frank Szabo
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" ... must be those damned workers causing this loss - somebody call up Arpey over at Amerikan and ask him how he got his boys to believe the doom and gloom stuff ''
AMR Earnings: $162M Loss
- Thread starter eolesen
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" ... must be those damned workers causing this loss - somebody call up Arpey over at Amerikan and ask him how he got his boys to believe the doom and gloom stuff ''
OP
eolesen
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- Jul 23, 2003
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WN lost $239m on hedging... Remember all the trolls pissing and moaning about AMR being too dumb to hedge? This is the second time in three or four years WN took a beating on hedges...
Otherwise, they had an operating profit of $122m, down from $195m before specials last year.
Otherwise, they had an operating profit of $122m, down from $195m before specials last year.
- Aug 20, 2002
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I believe all of the airlines are faulting Fuel Cost as the major factor for the Q3 Reports. What is not clear to me is the size of the respective fleets and fuel pricing?
Typical AA response. "We and our partners can take you to the top 10 business market in the world" they might be right but so can Delta and United. The Latter two can also take you to the rest of the world. Let's hope that AA does decide to get serious about competing in NYC. At the end of the day we have a vested interest in the success of AMR. But sometimes I think our top managemts looks at us as a liability instead of making us business partners. So we can go out and take on the competition. The reality is that even though you hear that AMR employees are disgruntled; the majority of us want AA to succeed.
Frank Szabo
Veteran
Since all majors are whining about fuel costs now, I'm beginning to feel a bit left out since I'm a brick.
We bricks got a lot of attention some time ago and were in the limelight but I guess all good things come to an end.
I stand corrected! I did forget the golden years, 2006 AA posted an annual net profit of 231M. AA posted a 504M net profit for 07. "consecutive" incorrect. AA has reported loss for 8 of the past 10 years, from 12/31/2000 to 12/31/2010, which totals 11.5B in loss excluding 2011.
If I'm reading their quarterly earnings release correctly, the fuel hedges provided a negative hit to net earnings of a whopping $393 million in the third quarter, but Kelly said that those hedges have already regained over $300 million of that value in the past 20 days.
Still, AA's hedges didn't burn AA quite the way WN's hedges slammed WN.
BoeingBoy
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WN hedges further into the future than any other carrier that I know of, so has more unsettled hedges at the end of each quarter. When the value of the hedges are lower at the end of the quarter than when they were entered in to or than the last quarter's mark to market value, they result in a loss. WTI Cushing crude (which is what the NYMEX options are based on) were under $79 on the last day of the quarter and over $88 at yesterday's close.
Jim
Jim
thank you Jim for your honesty... Remember this is AA? BK? Reallly? Not...they shoud have run to the courthouse a long time agao. This is the point of view from the thousands point of view. RUN FOREST (AA) RUN.
OP
eolesen
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All you have to do is look in "other revenue" on the earnings releases.
$649m for the quarter, $1.9b for the year to date.
That's anything other than tickets, including ground handling contracts and third party work, but the bulk of this is passenger fees. It is the only place where revenues are strong. AA can't raise fares, but they have raised fees. That only goes so far, unfortunately, because fees can't exceed ticket prices without impacting sales, and there are only so many fees you can get away with.
It is also why Congress wants to tax fee revenue.
In perspective, it's twice of what AA pays for maintenance expenses (less wages and benefits).
$649m for the quarter, $1.9b for the year to date.
That's anything other than tickets, including ground handling contracts and third party work, but the bulk of this is passenger fees. It is the only place where revenues are strong. AA can't raise fares, but they have raised fees. That only goes so far, unfortunately, because fees can't exceed ticket prices without impacting sales, and there are only so many fees you can get away with.
It is also why Congress wants to tax fee revenue.
In perspective, it's twice of what AA pays for maintenance expenses (less wages and benefits).
WorldTraveler
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- Dec 5, 2003
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The DOT tracks direct transportation (fares) and non-transportation/ancillary revenue.
Here is the latest DOT press release w/ amounts for each carrier.
http://www.bts.gov/press_releases/2011/bts047_11/html/bts047_11.html
Note, however, that WN's ancillary revenue - the DOT lists what is involved in that category - as a percentage of total operating revenue is ABOVE THE INDUSTRY AVERAGE and higher than AA.
The industry average for ancillary revenue is 6.2% of total operating revenues.
By comparison, Spirit with their no frills model gets 28.9% of total revenue in ancillary fees, followed by FL, F9, Allegiant, DL, US, VX, WN, and AS - all of which are above the industry average.
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The notion that WN passengers don't have "hidden fees" is just not accurate.
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All airlines obtain revenue from sources other than what is on the passenger ticket... the DOT's concern is only that passengers know what is not included and what will be charged when they purchase their tickets. Implementation of the law to fully disclose these fees has been pushed back - IIRC - but the gov't wants more disclosure and the airlines are providing it.
Here is the latest DOT press release w/ amounts for each carrier.
http://www.bts.gov/press_releases/2011/bts047_11/html/bts047_11.html
Note, however, that WN's ancillary revenue - the DOT lists what is involved in that category - as a percentage of total operating revenue is ABOVE THE INDUSTRY AVERAGE and higher than AA.
The industry average for ancillary revenue is 6.2% of total operating revenues.
By comparison, Spirit with their no frills model gets 28.9% of total revenue in ancillary fees, followed by FL, F9, Allegiant, DL, US, VX, WN, and AS - all of which are above the industry average.
.
The notion that WN passengers don't have "hidden fees" is just not accurate.
.
All airlines obtain revenue from sources other than what is on the passenger ticket... the DOT's concern is only that passengers know what is not included and what will be charged when they purchase their tickets. Implementation of the law to fully disclose these fees has been pushed back - IIRC - but the gov't wants more disclosure and the airlines are providing it.
BoeingBoy
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Ask and the BTS will often reply...although with some delay. Latest data is 1st quarter this year.
BTS report on baggage fees per quarter by airline
Jim
Sure they can, and have, successfully around 9 times in the last year.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/airlines-attempt-to-raise-fares-for-1st-time-since-summer-but-increases-might-not-stick/2011/10/19/gIQAKTfhxL_story.html
How does AA's revenues stack up compared to past reports for the third quarter? $6 billion is a lot of money, they had to work overtime to spend it all to get to that $168 million dollar loss. Kind of like "Brewsters Millions", if you want to secure Billions in labor concessions you have to lose hundreds of millions first.
AMR is on track to make $24 billion this year. I believe thats more than ever before, even when they had 200 more airlplanes and 40,000 more employees that were earning a higher hourtly wage and had better benefits than now.
Thats a lot of money to spend. Maybe thats why they refused to defer some of the mods (such as the new cabins) they are doing and catch up on their heavy checks and outsourced them. By craming everything into this year, violating the agreement which will result in payments for lost overtime they are deliberately driving their labor costs way up. The settlement for outsourcing the heavy checks to Timco could easily be in the millions. So the company would pay Timco, then pay the grievants. In other words pay twice.This all would get added to their costs for the year, then they will claim that their maintenance costs are not competative (even though they would drop dramatically once we are caught up).
Thanks Jim, that's a great site.
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