AMFA - Yes/No?

[UAL_TECH]

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On 4/13/2003 6:35:36 PM ual747mech wrote:

UT,

What makes you think we''re stuck with the IAM if this gets voted in? The thing about AMFA is I don''t like their timing. Why couldn''t they have waited for everything to settle like they did at NWA. Yeah, yeah I know they''re about to lose a lot of cards from expiration. AMFA''s strategy at UAL is hurting their cause rather helping it. Also what''s happening at NWA with all their massive mechanic layoffs and base closure with AMFA not being able to stop it immediately is making people think twice.

Like I said before, I think it''s good to have AMFA around because it creates competition.

"Not stuck on a specific union."

Take Care,

Ual747mech


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Ual747mech,
Of course there are variations to the vote:
1) Concessions in ; iam stays (Status Quo)
2) Concessions in ; AMFA voted in:
(AMFA cannot do much other than collect dues, do nothing, and #### about how the
iam screwed you, and tied their hands for six years!!!) {-IMHO- Not a good solution}
3) Concessions out ; iam stays
{Duh!!! - Worst Case!!! Still pay dues, no rep, no protection, nada nada nada!!!}
4) Concessions out ; AMFA voted in:
(On BK Exit, negotiaions begin.)
5) Concessions out ; No Union {HaHaHaHa........}

Pick One!!!

-IMHO-

Take Care Bro,
UAL_TECH

 

[ual747mech]

UT,

I disagree with #4. We are stuck with concession for six years no matter what happens. The only choice that we have is to accept the tentative or reject it. If we reject it then we are still going to be stuck with a six year deal of company's last offer because that's what will be implemented if the contract gets abrogated. I will try to get the bankruptcy code to support my argument. If you have anything to back up your opinion then give it to us cause we need all the info we can get to make the right decision. Thx.

Later.

 

[UAL_TECH]

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On 4/13/2003 1132 PM ual747mech wrote:

UT,

I disagree with #4. We are stuck with concession for six years no matter what happens. The only choice that we have is to accept the tentative or reject it. If we reject it then we are still going to be stuck with a six year deal of company''s last offer because that''s what will be implemented if the contract gets abrogated. I will try to get the bankruptcy code to support my argument. If you have anything to back up your opinion then give it to us cause we need all the info we can get to make the right decision. Thx.

Later.

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ual747mech,
Correct, I cannot find information either.
Looks like we are treading on new ground.
If I have something new, I''ll post it.

Take Care Bro,
UAL_TECH

 

[ual747mech]

UT,

Correct what? You agree that we are stuck with a six concession no matter what? Actually, I found this from the AFA's web. I knew about it all along that's why I said we are going to be stuck with a six year deal because that's what the company is proposing and according to this code if the contract gets abrogated then it will lead to the company's last offer.

Here it is:

10. What can happen to our Contract if United files for Chapter 11?

Under Section 1113 of the Bankruptcy Code, the debtor may ask the bankruptcy court for authority to reject labor Contracts, and it can thereby seek to modify any provision in a labor Contract, including scope.

The debtor must go through a negotiation and litigation process before it can obtain rejection of a labor Contract. First, a proposal must be provided to the relevant Union prior to the company’s filing the motion to reject in court. Among the statutory requirements, the proposal must provide only for “necessary†modifications that are “necessary†to permit reorganization and assure “fair†and “equitable†treatment of all parties. The company must also provide the Union with such relevant information as is necessary to evaluate the proposal. Then, within 2-3 weeks of filing this motion, during which negotiations take place, a full-scale bankruptcy court hearing is held where all interested parties can be heard. Negotiations often continue during the hearing. If no settlement is reached, the court’s decision on rejection of Contracts will be made within 40-51 days of the filing of the motion unless the debtor agrees to extend this period.

If the rejection of a labor Contract is approved, it leads to the debtor’s implementation of its last offer to the Union. The Union then has the right to strike.

-------------------
Also here's what happened in past bankruptcy cases according to this:

12. What happened to the Flight Attendant Contracts in the Continental Airlines and TWA bankruptcies?

Continental Airlines filed for bankruptcy protection in 1983 and 1991. In the first bankruptcy, Continental eliminated the Collective Bargaining Agreement and replaced it with unilaterally created work rules. Wages were cut by 60%, and vacation, sick and other benefits also were drastically reduced. These actions were taken before Section 1113 was added to the bankruptcy code when there were no special procedures in place relating to a debtor’s rejection of a labor Contract. A year after the second bankruptcy filing, the Flight Attendants were able to negotiate their first Collective Bargaining Agreement in nine years. That Contract, however, primarily incorporated most of the then existing work rules which management had imposed. Wages were increased but remained at 50% of what they were in 1983, before the first bankruptcy filing. Under that Agreement, the highest wage rate in the Contract’s first year was $14.00, vacation peaked at 21 days after 10 years and there were no trip or duty rigs.

Prior to its purchase by American Airlines, TWA had undergone three bankruptcies – in 1992, 1995 and 2001. At the time of the first bankruptcy, the Flight Attendants had not negotiated a Contract since their strike in 1986. In August 1992 the Flight Attendants reached an Agreement with management that deferred wage increases until 1995. However, by August 1994, it had become clear that because of the carrier’s financial condition it would not be able to pay for the scheduled wage increases. Instead, Flight Attendants along with the other labor groups negotiated a second concessionary Contract that remained in place until 1999. One and half years later, in January 2001 TWA again sought bankruptcy protection. As part of the transaction with American, the Unions agreed that their Contracts could be changed so as to mirror the equivalent provisions in the American labor Agreements. Also American demanded that the scope and successorship provisions in the TWA Collective Bargaining Agreements be eliminated.

The entire Bankruptcy Q&A is here: http://www.unitedafa.org/features/bankrupt...asp

Take care,

Ual747mech

 

[ualflynhi]

No matter what happens with this contract
I am voting the IAM out as soon as possible.

 

[Boomer]

ual747,
You are correct in that the existing contract stays in force, in my opinion, the problem is in defining an existing contract and the conditions under which you can exercise self-help.

At AMR, we, the Maintenance & Related, have approved a contract that is worse than the one the IAM negotiaited in bankruptcy.

If the Maintenance & Related at UAL vote to accept this deal, they are locked in for the entire length of the concessionary contract. If they reject it UAL may seek to abrogate portions of OR the entire contract. If the contract is ABROGATED in WHOLE, OR IN PART, the conditions would have to be no worse than what we have at AA becuase one of the rules allowing a judge to abrogate a contract is the prevailing rates within the industry.

The important difference is that if you get rid of the IAM and ELECT AMFA, with an abrogated contract you can wait until UAL returns to profitability AND THEN DECLARE YOUR INTENTION TO STRIKE. You do not have to go the full term under an abrogated contract and you do not have to be released by the NMB or the Presdident or the Courts. The reason to get rid of the IAM now is because all of the funds held by the IAM locals will most likely stay with the IAM. You need whatever time you can gain to build you AMFA Local Treasuries for the fight that will happen with UAL.

 

[ual747mech]

Boomer,

Sorry, I don''t like your idea. It only gets worse from here. I agree, your agreement at American doesn''t look good but that''s what your union negotiated based on the savings the company is demanding. If the company goes to bankruptcy it will only get worse because the company will require more savings and the union is going to have to make cuts whereever necessary to meet those requirements. Look at what happened to us. We went from a potential 7-9%paycut prior to bankruptcy to 13% or more paycut in bankruptcy. The reason we ended up in bankruptcy is because we didn''t get the ATSB loan. A lot of people like you thinks that we can improve our contract during bankruptcy but history doesn''t prove it. Even if we vote this in we can still change union anytime just like what happened at Southwest.

It''s good to avoid bankruptcy because bankruptcy will cost the company more. Think of it like this: if you and your wife was having a divorce it will cost you less if you both will come to an agreement how to split things up, unlike having to fight it out in court with lawyers cost and other fees thats involved.

Later and take care.

 

[UAL_TECH]

 

[UAL_TECH]

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On 4/16/2003 7:59:16 PM ual747mech wrote:

UT,

Correct what? You agree that we are stuck with a six concession no matter what? Actually, I found this from the AFA's web. I knew about it all along that's why I said we are going to be stuck with a six year deal because that's what the company is proposing and according to this code if the contract gets abrogated then it will lead to the company's last offer.

Here it is:

10. What can happen to our Contract if United files for Chapter 11?

Under Section 1113 of the Bankruptcy Code, the debtor may ask the bankruptcy court for authority to reject labor Contracts, and it can thereby seek to modify any provision in a labor Contract, including scope.

The debtor must go through a negotiation and litigation process before it can obtain rejection of a labor Contract. First, a proposal must be provided to the relevant Union prior to the company’s filing the motion to reject in court. Among the statutory requirements, the proposal must provide only for “necessary†modifications that are “necessary†to permit reorganization and assure “fair†and “equitable†treatment of all parties. The company must also provide the Union with such relevant information as is necessary to evaluate the proposal. Then, within 2-3 weeks of filing this motion, during which negotiations take place, a full-scale bankruptcy court hearing is held where all interested parties can be heard. Negotiations often continue during the hearing. If no settlement is reached, the court’s decision on rejection of Contracts will be made within 40-51 days of the filing of the motion unless the debtor agrees to extend this period.

If the rejection of a labor Contract is approved, it leads to the debtor’s implementation of its last offer to the Union. The Union then has the right to strike.

-------------------
Also here's what happened in past bankruptcy cases according to this:

12. What happened to the Flight Attendant Contracts in the Continental Airlines and TWA bankruptcies?

Continental Airlines filed for bankruptcy protection in 1983 and 1991. In the first bankruptcy, Continental eliminated the Collective Bargaining Agreement and replaced it with unilaterally created work rules. Wages were cut by 60%, and vacation, sick and other benefits also were drastically reduced. These actions were taken before Section 1113 was added to the bankruptcy code when there were no special procedures in place relating to a debtor’s rejection of a labor Contract. A year after the second bankruptcy filing, the Flight Attendants were able to negotiate their first Collective Bargaining Agreement in nine years. That Contract, however, primarily incorporated most of the then existing work rules which management had imposed. Wages were increased but remained at 50% of what they were in 1983, before the first bankruptcy filing. Under that Agreement, the highest wage rate in the Contract’s first year was $14.00, vacation peaked at 21 days after 10 years and there were no trip or duty rigs.

Prior to its purchase by American Airlines, TWA had undergone three bankruptcies – in 1992, 1995 and 2001. At the time of the first bankruptcy, the Flight Attendants had not negotiated a Contract since their strike in 1986. In August 1992 the Flight Attendants reached an Agreement with management that deferred wage increases until 1995. However, by August 1994, it had become clear that because of the carrier’s financial condition it would not be able to pay for the scheduled wage increases. Instead, Flight Attendants along with the other labor groups negotiated a second concessionary Contract that remained in place until 1999. One and half years later, in January 2001 TWA again sought bankruptcy protection. As part of the transaction with American, the Unions agreed that their Contracts could be changed so as to mirror the equivalent provisions in the American labor Agreements. Also American demanded that the scope and successorship provisions in the TWA Collective Bargaining Agreements be eliminated.

The entire Bankruptcy Q&A is here: http://www.unitedafa.org/features/bankrupt...asp

Take care,

Ual747mech

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Ual747mech,

Correct in that my inference to the item#4 that I offered is flawed (WRONG!).
We do not know what will happen, but based on your research of historical occurrences, it does not look good.
Thank you for your research!

'IMHO'

Take Care Bro,
UAL_TECH

 

[atabuy]

http://www.iam141m.org/SUMMARY%20OF%20TERM....pdf

For all mechanics that are interested in what the company will do if this T/A is not ratified and the contract is abrogated, here is the link.

Now this is only what the company proposed to the union to initiate negotiations. If there is no union, I beleive it will be worse.

We live in a free society so you have the option to vote however you like. I would just make sure you have all the facts before you vote.

For so many of these work rules that you have there were huge trade offs which took years and years of contracts to get.
Starting fresh, with another union, you will be starting all over again.
Good luck if that is the way you want to go.

 

[ualflynhi]

6 year extension hell no.

 

[ual747mech]

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On 4/19/2003 11:01:53 AM ualflynhi wrote:

6 year extension hell no.

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Which 6 year extension? Pre abrogation or after abrogation? JK . Happy Easter to you buddy. Later

 

[ual747mech]

Ual_Tech,

You''re welcome bud. Happy Easter to you and the family.

Later