American no longer in FAA safety program

[Hatu]

American, Delta end participation in FAA safety program that led to labor tension


DALLAS (AP) -- The nation's two largest airlines have dropped out of a federal safety program that was designed to encourage voluntary reporting of pilot errors before they resulted in crashes.
Delta Air Lines Inc. and American Airlines quit the Aviation Safety Action Program, or ASAP, which allows pilots to admit mistakes without fear of being punished.

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/081205/airlines_sa...ogram.html?.v=1

 

[FWflyer]

Really old news. AA dropped out of the program in October, and Delta in 2006. Expiration of the American program was reported in the FW Star-Telegram and Dallas Morning News. Not sure why the Associated Press thinks its new ...

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

Record-Setting In-flight Engine Shutdowns/Failures -- It Worked for RenoAir, Didn't It?
APA Communications Committee: As we reported last week, FAA statistics indicate that thanks to AMR management, AA and AE are the only U.S. airlines where in-flight engine failure rates are on the increase year over year. Since our story last week, we have experienced two more in-flight shutdowns, bringing AA's 2008 total to the highest ever recorded at this airline.
In researching this problem, we discovered that RenoAir experienced similar problems in 1998 when current AMR Executive VP of Operations Bob "Bottom Dollar (Before Safety)" Reding was CEO of Reno. In a February 1998 press release, RenoAir said the following to explain the cause of transition problems: "This was compounded by substantial increases in engine maintenance expenses due to an unusually high rate of unscheduled engine removals during 1997." It is not a dramatic leap in logic to wonder if the leadership causing the problems at RenoAir has now recreated the same problems at AA.
We have been cautioning our pilots for some time now that AMR management's over-zealous cost cutting, especially in the areas of maintenance, have been steadily reducing the margin of safety. AA has the best line maintenance personnel in the industry, but management has diminished their numbers and resources. In the past, even during economic downturns like this, maintenance and safety programs were off-limits to airline management cost cutting -- but not under this management.
We strongly encourage careful and thorough preflight inspections and checks in hopes of identifying any potential problems prior to takeoff rather than having to deal with them in the air.

 

[eolesen]

What's not said in any of these articles or union statements is that the FAA also apparently violated the self-disclosure agreement when they went after both AMR and SWA last year.

What's to stop the FAA from using an ASAP report for revoking a airman's certificate?

If self-disclosure is going to be used as a hammer for potential fines, then I can see why neither side is interested in the programs being continued.

 

[TWU informer]

I would like to know if the TeAAm TWU leader Kevin Hammack who was the anti-amfa ring leader in Tulsa who became Manager over the ASAP program will soon hit the street? Or will he simply be moved to another position while management claims a reduction in headcount?

Kevin was the number one fear monger amongst the many fear breathing dragons.

He was so afraid of losing his job or having the work that he would lick any boot until the sole was worn through.

Now he is Manager over ASAP and this program is finished.

Will justice be served up? B)

 

[The Goose]

I would like to know if the TeAAm TWU leader Kevin Hammack who was the anti-amfa ring leader in Tulsa who became Manager over the ASAP program will soon hit the street? Or will he simply be moved to another position while management claims a reduction in headcount?

Kevin was the number one fear monger amongst the many fear breathing dragons.

He was so afraid of losing his job or having the work that he would lick any boot until the sole was worn through.

Now he is Manager over ASAP and this program is finished.

Will justice be served up? B)

Is Hammack over the pilots' portion of the ASAP program? As I'm understanding it, the pilots are the only ones to have left the program; that of the TWU is unaffected.

As far as Hammack is concerned, you know as well as I rather than returning to the floor and facing his fellow employees after all the poor decisions he made while on our dime as a union officer, he sold out to the dark side, rather, made it official as many other union officers should, from Little Jimmy on down.

 

[Mach85ER]

What's not said in any of these articles or union statements is that the FAA also apparently violated the self-disclosure agreement when they went after both AMR and SWA last year.

What's to stop the FAA from using an ASAP report for revoking a airman's certificate?

If self-disclosure is going to be used as a hammer for potential fines, then I can see why neither side is interested in the programs being continued.

E,

I am not familiar with the maintenance ASAP programs or self disclosure limits in the SWA/AA groundings. I do know on the pilot side that ASAP never was a "get out of jail free" program.

A rough example might be a pilot who briefly exceeded the 250KT speed limit below 10,000' due to distractions, and another who flew 320KT all the way to short final to make his commuter flight, and caused a loss of separation with another aircraft.

There were 3 votes on discipline in cases like these. AA, the FAA AA inspector, and the APA rep. They had to be in unaminous agreement for discipline. More than likely, the guy tracked on radar and causing an incident through deliberate disregard of the FAR's and maybe his FO's objections would not get immunity even from the union rep. This guy would be rejected from the program and deal with the FAA on the usual terms. The Captain doing the inadvertant violation more than likley would be exonerated from discipline.

The short story on the issue is AA wanted to change the vote on discipline to 2 out of 3. It didn't take long to figure out if there was 1 vote for AA, and 1 vote for their FAA puppet, the pilots would end up screwed on every close decison, especially with the current Flight Department. They also wanted to institute a flow chart computer program that would recommend discipline. (My personal feeling/theory in this case is AA wants non-pilot managers -money savings- to be able to be in charge of issues like this)

 

[skipfly]

I would like to know if the TeAAm TWU leader Kevin Hammack who was the anti-amfa ring leader in Tulsa who became Manager over the ASAP program will soon hit the street? Or will he simply be moved to another position while management claims a reduction in headcount?

Kevin was the number one fear monger amongst the many fear breathing dragons.

He was so afraid of losing his job or having the work that he would lick any boot until the sole was worn through.

Now he is Manager over ASAP and this program is finished.

Will justice be served up? B)

Hammack is not and never was the ASAP Manager. M&E ASAP is not affected by any of this.

 

[skipfly]

What's not said in any of these articles or union statements is that the FAA also apparently violated the self-disclosure agreement when they went after both AMR and SWA last year.

What's to stop the FAA from using an ASAP report for revoking a airman's certificate?

If self-disclosure is going to be used as a hammer for potential fines, then I can see why neither side is interested in the programs being continued.

VSD program and ASAP are two different things. The FAA can take no punitive action on accepted reports. As for the AMR MD-80 fiasco, the FAA found it so VSD could not apply. SWA is another story, the accusation there is that some of the feds were in bed with SWA bending the VSD rules. Not saying that is what happened, but that is why they went after the fines.

 

[frontline]

What I don't get is why APA suddenly decided that program wasn't working for them after years of success. I think it has to do with contract negotiations. Hill is desperate for any cards he can get, because he knows the pilot demands are totally unrealistic.

 

[Winglet]

What I don't get is why APA suddenly decided that program wasn't working for them after years of success. I think it has to do with contract negotiations. Hill is desperate for any cards he can get, because he knows the pilot demands are totally unrealistic.

The company wanted to change the program to give them a hammer over the pilots, yet call it a safety program. Unacceptable. So now the company doesn't have one. Purely a company decision.

 

[skipfly]

The company wanted to change the program to give them a hammer over the pilots, yet call it a safety program. Unacceptable. So now the company doesn't have one. Purely a company decision.

The whole thing started because the APA wanted what was in the TWU ASAP MOU -(No discipline for accepted reports). The APA MOU only had that in for sole-source reports. The company then proposed using "just culture" saying that if a report was accepted by the "just culture" process then they would agree to what the APA wanted. The algorithm for just culture is a decision process that puts events into 3 categories. Human error, at-risk behavior and reckless behavior. Reckless Behavior, is the one that would not get into ASAP. The APA did not want to label pilots as reckless. The company then wanted to change the unanimous consensus paragraph to remove the wording that says that failure to reach unanimous consensus was grounds to terminate the ASAP program (hardly what a rational person would call a 2 to 1 vote). The M&E program has operated that way for 10 years.

Both the APA and AA have let this program slip away over very insignificant issues. This is a disservice to the AA flight crews who now will have to face the FAA, and to the flying public who will not have this proven safety program making it safer to fly.

Both sides should be ashamed of the political nature that this safety program has been taken to.

 

[FrequentFlierCA]

The company wanted to change the program to give them a hammer over the pilots, yet call it a safety program. Unacceptable. So now the company doesn't have one. Purely a company decision.

That's a mighty big load of crap you're trying to pass of there. The company wanted to keep the terms the same and extend the program. The pilots were the ones who wanted the changes and opted out of a program that had worked fine for them until Lloyd Hill talked himself into a corner in contract negotiations.

 

[tfc767]

That's a mighty big load of crap you're trying to pass of there. The company wanted to keep the terms the same and extend the program. The pilots were the ones who wanted the changes and opted out of a program that had worked fine for them until Lloyd Hill talked himself into a corner in contract negotiations.

FFCA,

The pilots wanted to change the wording for good reason... protection. That said, this is clearly a case of both the union and the company fighting political battles over an issue that degrades safety... end of story.

 

[Mach85ER]

That's a mighty big load of crap you're trying to pass of there. The company wanted to keep the terms the same and extend the program. The pilots were the ones who wanted the changes and opted out of a program that had worked fine for them until Lloyd Hill talked himself into a corner in contract negotiations.

You appear to not have the slightest grasp of reality regarding this issue. Look at the bright side. The good news is that your credibility has nowhere to go but up.