AA and APFA announce ASAP Safety reporting program

[eolesen]

Something still doesn't sound right here...

There have always been differences in how various FAA FSDO's interpret things for different carriers, but you'd think the PSI's covering AMR would be in sync with what they've agreed to for the APA, TWU and APFA since they all report out of FTW.

If Cap'n Hill is letting this get tangled up in pay negotiations, then APA is failing in their responsibility to represent their members on all fronts. Safety and pay issues are asynchronous. You shouldn't let real safety issues persist just because you're unhappy with management.

Likewise, if AMR is dragging their feet, shame on them. The enacting of the program with the APFA leads me to believe they're not the culprit, but I've got nothing to prove their innocence either way...

I think we all know ASAP has been used to cover up some stuff which should have resulted in discipline ( I used to receive the pilot reports... ). But, that's just part of the risk you run in having any self-disclosure program. If you can't trend the breaches, you can't address the problems.

 

[nbmcg01]

Something still doesn't sound right here...

There have always been differences in how various FAA FSDO's interpret things for different carriers, but you'd think the PSI's covering AMR would be in sync with what they've agreed to for the APA, TWU and APFA since they all report out of FTW.

If Cap'n Hill is letting this get tangled up in pay negotiations, then APA is failing in their responsibility to represent their members on all fronts. Safety and pay issues are asynchronous. You shouldn't let real safety issues persist just because you're unhappy with management.

Likewise, if AMR is dragging their feet, shame on them. The enacting of the program with the APFA leads me to believe they're not the culprit, but I've got nothing to prove their innocence either way...

I think we all know ASAP has been used to cover up some stuff which should have resulted in discipline ( I used to receive the pilot reports... ). But, that's just part of the risk you run in having any self-disclosure program. If you can't trend the breaches, you can't address the problems.

Discipline isn't always the answer. Sometimes disclosure identifies a "training issue" which can lead to correctives actions before it becomes a serious problem. Just a thought. Once again, the reporting agency should always be a third party "neutral" to protect confidentiality and encourage
real disclosure. It should be for ALL directly involved with safety of flight.

 

[Mach85ER]

The flight ASAP program has always had disciplinary action it it. The problem was brought on because the APA wanted what M&E ASAP has had for years no discipline. AA offered up "Just Culture" as a way to accept or reject reports.

Good discussion.

The old ASAP needed all 3 parties to agree to accept or reject (send to the old discipline method) a report. I think you're correct in that APA wanted what M&E got. I do disagree that it's a way to avoid discipline. Any pilot will tell you that even filing an ASAP is a disagreeable event. A minor one for minor things, but worse as things get more serious.

As I mentioned, AA wanted only 2 out of 3 parties to get a rejection. The pilots know that the FAA rep to AA will vote in lockstep with AA. Proof of this is the cellphone while taxing incident by a Chief Pilot. He broke every reg out there while doing admin work while taxing with pax in back. The local FAA POI put his feet on the desk and said "no problem". Rumor is, the DOT Inspector Generals office apparently felt otherwise.

The "Just Culture" computer program is another joke. AA wouldn't admit who controls the decison making algorithims. Should the pilots trust them on this point? Not me.

eolesen,
The pilot group would probably agree with you on those discipline cases. From my perspective, maybe some of them should get dinged, but I don't really see a better system than what we have now. With the typical corporate culture in the cockpit, it would be an ugly back biting cubicle. My bet is that you'd see the same amount of people skating by discipline, but instead of Union protection, they'd have the protection of being a Manger's buddy, a "favored Son" as in the cellphone incident, a relative or some other junior corporate lackey. I saw this before in Corporate/Charter operations. It's uglier than union stuff.

 

[Winglet]

What I understand very clearly is pilot arrogance. The pilots had no problem with this program until it was time to negotiate a new contract. Coincidence? No way. Not unlike the FAA, pilots are playing politics with safety.

The problem came when AA tried to CHANGE to program and introduce changes (the "Just Culture" sham, etc) that would enable them to introduce threats in the system and use it politically.

Funny how Delta (and other companies') management tried to do the same thing to their pilots, and their pilots rejected ASAP just as the APA did. Only now in the last couple days, Delta management has relented and agreed to re-institute the program the way it originally was and the way it was suppose to work. Oh, and BTW, the "story" that AA management told about the FAA not agreeing to renewing the original terms of ASAP, well it turns out that was a bunch of bunk, just like all the airline unions were saying. In any case Delta has their program back and my money is on AA agreeing to the original terms as well.

The ASAP debacle was a blatant power grab by managements to get another stick to beat the pilots with.

Now "FrequentFlierCA", back to your cubical with the company's PR firm and start think up the next scam.

 

[Winglet]

If Cap'n Hill is letting this get tangled up in pay negotiations, then APA is failing in their responsibility to represent their members on all fronts. Safety and pay issues are asynchronous. You shouldn't let real safety issues persist just because you're unhappy with management.

And what evidence is there that ASAP is in ANY way linked to section 6 negotiations??? That's right, ZERO, ZIP, NADA. That's because there IS NO LINK. As far as playing politics with safety, its not the managers of AA that are flying through the air at .80 mach 80 hours a month. It's the pilots. Pilot's and their families have a very direct and personal interest in operating the airline safely. The senior managers sit behind their desks with their financial golden parachutes should the unthinkable happen. Who do you think is more concerned about safety??

As far as FA ASAP, the complexity, decision-making, and routine safety aspects of a flight attendant job pales to that of a pilots' job.

 

[Winglet]

Bull. The pilot "captains" (Hill and his cohorts) have been seizing any reason to not cooperative with the company on anything. If ASAP was so detrimental to pilots, where were all the complaints before the program expired? Since I also work at AA I know a lot of pilots, and I never heard a single complaint.

As "frontline" well knows, it was management that wanted to make changes to the program in order to introduce punishment for pilots they thought they could "get", and that's where it fell apart. Delta management tried the something similar, but has recently relented:

"The agreement signed by Delta requires that all decisions be reached by "the voluntary agreement of all representatives," the same standard that our program called "unanimous consensus." In recent press releases, AMR management has claimed that "the Just Culture philosophy has taken hold within the U.S. industry and is on its way to becoming an accepted industry standard." In stark contrast to that claim, the Delta agreement does not contain a single reference to the "Just Culture Algorithm" or "reckless behavior." Events are judged for inclusion based solely on the criteria set forth in the FAA Advisory Circular, which were established by our program nearly 15 years ago."

 

[frontline]

Not sure what you mean by saying I would know that.

What I do know is that APA leadership is hell bent on declaring an impasse and authorizing a strike. Part of their campaign against the company has been to score as many PR shots as possible, and ASAP is one of these.

I have no beef with the pilots seeking the return of lost wages. I'm seeking the same thing from inside the TWU. What pisses me off is the uncompromising militancy of the pilot leadership and their apparent inability to see reason. If their intransigence leads to a strike it could very well end up costing me my job and retirement. As long as they keep screwing around with my future, they're going to hear about it from me.

 

[Mach85ER]

Not sure what you mean by saying I would know that.

What I do know is that APA leadership is hell bent on declaring an impasse and authorizing a strike. Part of their campaign against the company has been to score as many PR shots as possible, and ASAP is one of these.

I have no beef with the pilots seeking the return of lost wages. I'm seeking the same thing from inside the TWU. What pisses me off is the uncompromising militancy of the pilot leadership and their apparent inability to see reason. If their intransigence leads to a strike it could very well end up costing me my job and retirement. As long as they keep screwing around with my future, they're going to hear about it from me.

Cry me a river. I honestly could care less. I say that because all I sense is some clueless whining about your life decisons. Going to work at a employer that is heavily unionized is at the top of the list. If the TWU or the APFA put me on the street, so be it. That's the choice of their membership. I know the APFA and TWU members may run into plenty of scared children in the pilot ranks when negotiations get tough with AMR. Not this poster. I may not agree with the other AA unions, but I try to respect the choices they make. There is one group that I truly feel for in this mess, it's the islands where AA is the only boat out. They're along for the ride with little choice in the matter.

 

[Winglet]

Not sure what you mean by saying I would know that.

What I do know is that APA leadership is hell bent on declaring an impasse and authorizing a strike. Part of their campaign against the company has been to score as many PR shots as possible, and ASAP is one of these.

I have no beef with the pilots seeking the return of lost wages. I'm seeking the same thing from inside the TWU. What pisses me off is the uncompromising militancy of the pilot leadership and their apparent inability to see reason. If their intransigence leads to a strike it could very well end up costing me my job and retirement. As long as they keep screwing around with my future, they're going to hear about it from me.

Arpey has the ASAP program on his desk. All he needs to do is sign it, which is what I predict he'll ultimately do when he figures out that he can't bluff, bully, snooker, or intimidate the APA anymore. The ASAP program is more valuable to the company than it is to the pilots. The ridiculous ASAP proposal by AA, I think, was a test shot across the APA's bow to see if they could bring Lloyd Hill to heel. It failed miserably, of course.

Just what is your idea of "reason?" Give Arpey even more concessions (like he's demanding) over the already horrible contract of 2003?? It would seem that "reason" in your eyes is for the APA to genuflect to AA demands for greatly increased work hours and work days that would put 1500 pilots on the street. Well, sorry Frontline, but you can strike that off your wish list.

Intransigence of the APA???? The APA has put offers on the table for everything. AA has proposed NOTHING but more concessions and will not even make a proposal of ANY kind on pay. When the APA negotiator asked the AA negotiator what their pay proposal would be if the APA accepted ALL of their regressive productively proposals, the AA negotiator fell silent . . . . . again. AA is obviously not negotiating in good faith and is intentionally stalling for as long as possible.

So, yea. You should be worried. Put a few months of pay in the bank. I have and I'm ready to walk if it becomes necessary. You might need a couple months pay reserve too it if Arpey decides to that he's going to go for broke and break the APA on and for all. Strap in tight. This summer's going to be very interesting . . . as in the old Chinese curse, "May you live in interesting times."

 

[FrequentFlierCA]

I can't speak for frontline, but personally I would define "reason" as a willingness to take in the economic context and adjust raise expectations accordingly. If the millions and billions were flowing around AMR, I'd advocate for the employees to get good raises. But with demand fragile and weak and the recession deepening, I don't see where AMR is going to find the money to meet the wage demands. And hold your fire on the PUP money; that's nothing but speculation and assumption until April.

 

[jersey777]

When the APA negotiator asked the AA negotiator what their pay proposal would be if the APA accepted ALL of their regressive productively proposals, the AA negotiator fell silent . . . . . again. AA is obviously not negotiating in good faith and






Correct me if I'm wrong...but are some of these regressive productivity proposals include getting rid of the 3rd pilot on JFK-PAP-JFK and other 8 hr caribbean turns? I mean..your not going to get much sympathy from your fellow coworkers when you have this ridiculous workrule. Whenever I fly these trips I hear the pilots talk about how "cake" the trip is. And not only are there 3 pilots...it means 2 less first class seats.

And what about transcons? The flight attendants fly 7 a month and that comes between 78-80 hrs per month. The pilots can't do this because it over schedules them. Another thing your not gonna get much sympathy on. I hope you people get a nice raise because that will bode well for all of us. It justs seems to me that there are some "prima donna" work rules out there and you need to get with the times if want a 30 percent pay increase...or was it 50%?

 

[wcs]

Correct me if I'm wrong...but are some of these regressive productivity proposals include getting rid of the 3rd pilot on JFK-PAP-JFK and other 8 hr caribbean turns? I mean..your not going to get much sympathy from your fellow coworkers when you have this ridiculous workrule. Whenever I fly these trips I hear the pilots talk about how "cake" the trip is. And not only are there 3 pilots...it means 2 less first class seats.

You're partially incorrect. The requirements for a 3rd crewmember is not governed contractually.
It is controlled by Federal regulations (FAR 121.481 through 121.485). Seat assignment for that
additionally required pilot is contractual.
AA elects to operate flights that way. There must be a savings in crew layover costs as a result.

 

[Mach85ER]

And what about transcons? The flight attendants fly 7 a month and that comes between 78-80 hrs per month. The pilots can't do this because it over schedules them. Another thing your not gonna get much sympathy on.

We're not Flight Attendants, we're pilots. For whatever reason your group agreed to that has nothing to do with the pilots. It's hard to find a pilot flying less than 80 hours each month despite what you see on the bidsheet. AA knows this. It's also rare these days for a pilot to take his full vacation. Most cash out half and take off only 2 weeks or less each year for vacation. They fly the rest.

You're pointing out one "easy" day amongst most other less than desireable trips. AA schedules the flight. If they want 2 pilots on PAP or the AUA turn, they're free to schedule a secure layover or a tag leg to one. As for this flight being some "prima donna" princess flight, I can assure you that if the weather is down in the northeast, and the pilots have to deal with an emergency onboard, any flight will need at least 3 pilots up front, especially with any delays that typically happen.

On another note, Do you mind if I suggest that the FLight Attendants start to do training on weekends as well as major holidays such as Christmas Day? I missed all the chatter while in training over my last two Xmas training events. We'll take the 79 hour scheduling if you sit with us in Human Factors on Xmas morning

 

[FWAAA]

AA asks APA to restart the ASAP:

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/090206/american_sa...ogram.html?.v=2

But it lapsed in October after the union accused the company of using the program to punish pilots. The union wanted to put additional job-protection measures in the program, but the two sides couldn't agree on changes.