I think what USAir should do is go back to all the 401K's that they have contributed to and tell those folks that they really can't afford to give them that money after all and they want it back, plus the interest it has earned of course. For now they will let you keep what you contributed. After all if they had not been putting money in these 401k"s they could have been funding the pension program. What a solution!
ALPA Pension Solution --- Suggestions?
- Thread starter N628AU
- Start date
PITbull
Veteran
- Dec 29, 2002
- 7,784
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[blockquote]
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On 2/21/2003 3:51:52 PM RowUnderDCA wrote:
I've been wondering this:
What does 'freezing' mean?
How is it different from terminating?
How would freezing save U money?
Would freezing affect current retirees?
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[/blockquote]
In basic terms:
Freezing means that all of your credited pension years of service accrued, you maintain. At that point, the pension credits will stop accruing (freeze).
Terminating a pension means that all your pension credited years basically go away, and the fund is turned over to the PBGC, who then pay out the pension amounts according to THEIR scale and your age upon retiring. Not in all cases, but for the pilots, the PBGC guarantee scale is much much lower than what they would have received if the pension credits were allowed to continue
OR frozen in some cases.
Frozen pensions, like the agents in 991, save a company money because the company's pension liability decreases through time. The company still contributes but eventually with a lower liability. For the employee, however, their future retirement sums are dependent on other sources, for exp. 401K. Hopefully, the market does well as the RISK is shifted from the employer to the employee for retirement. And how you invest, and in what, over time, is the key.
Freezing pensions would NOT effect current retirees, as their credit years have already been accrued.
----------------
On 2/21/2003 3:51:52 PM RowUnderDCA wrote:
I've been wondering this:
What does 'freezing' mean?
How is it different from terminating?
How would freezing save U money?
Would freezing affect current retirees?
----------------
[/blockquote]
In basic terms:
Freezing means that all of your credited pension years of service accrued, you maintain. At that point, the pension credits will stop accruing (freeze).
Terminating a pension means that all your pension credited years basically go away, and the fund is turned over to the PBGC, who then pay out the pension amounts according to THEIR scale and your age upon retiring. Not in all cases, but for the pilots, the PBGC guarantee scale is much much lower than what they would have received if the pension credits were allowed to continue
OR frozen in some cases.
Frozen pensions, like the agents in 991, save a company money because the company's pension liability decreases through time. The company still contributes but eventually with a lower liability. For the employee, however, their future retirement sums are dependent on other sources, for exp. 401K. Hopefully, the market does well as the RISK is shifted from the employer to the employee for retirement. And how you invest, and in what, over time, is the key.
Freezing pensions would NOT effect current retirees, as their credit years have already been accrued.
PITbull
Veteran
- Dec 29, 2002
- 7,784
- 456
[blockquote]
----------------
On 2/21/2003 2:31:54 PM Schatzee wrote:
I think US should just stop all the pensions for the remaining groups that have them, start them off with a 401k like I got 10+ years ago as a customer service agent and get on with life. Everyone would then be on the same type of plan and maybe the us vs them would stop.
Personally, I don't think it would because the different groups of the USAirways family treat each just that way. We can talk about each other but unless you're in the "family", it generally is not taken well by the entire group from an outsider.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Schatzee,
Are you trying to be sarcastically "cute?
Besides the pilots, whose NOT getting on with life?
So, you think that if all groups get their pensions terminated that that would create "harmony" and peace among the groups?
Have you ever taken a course in "Human Behavior"?
Customer Service Agents got their pensions "frozen". Quite different than a termination. As far as starting a "new" type of contribution pension for the pilots, many will be retiring in the next 10 years or less. Do you know how much time is needed in investing to save for a retirement? These guys are forced into retirement by age 60.
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On 2/21/2003 2:31:54 PM Schatzee wrote:
I think US should just stop all the pensions for the remaining groups that have them, start them off with a 401k like I got 10+ years ago as a customer service agent and get on with life. Everyone would then be on the same type of plan and maybe the us vs them would stop.
Personally, I don't think it would because the different groups of the USAirways family treat each just that way. We can talk about each other but unless you're in the "family", it generally is not taken well by the entire group from an outsider.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Schatzee,
Are you trying to be sarcastically "cute?
Besides the pilots, whose NOT getting on with life?
So, you think that if all groups get their pensions terminated that that would create "harmony" and peace among the groups?
Have you ever taken a course in "Human Behavior"?
Customer Service Agents got their pensions "frozen". Quite different than a termination. As far as starting a "new" type of contribution pension for the pilots, many will be retiring in the next 10 years or less. Do you know how much time is needed in investing to save for a retirement? These guys are forced into retirement by age 60.
ALPA can simple come up with an alternative with negoitiation with management..instead of wasting time ****** around with the courts because at the end of the day the pilots and management will have to meet to solve the pension problem.
That is if the court say yeh U can terminate the pension plan they have to come together and if the court says no well yeh they still have to come together...
That is if the court say yeh U can terminate the pension plan they have to come together and if the court says no well yeh they still have to come together...
Is there really any comparison between the measley 401k the CWA and Fleet have and the ALPA pension? Puhlease......
I have one little house, 2 old(12+ years) cars and I still come to work everyday with a smile on my face. I put back what I can in my 401K and try to at least do a minimum contribution to a ROTH IRA every year. All of my basic needs are met and I still manage to fit in a few intl trips for the family.
I have a college degree and yes I know they have to retire at 60. Still watching a retired pilot friend spend his 1 million dollar lump sum payout. Pensions unfortunately are not guaranteed with all the loopholes out there. ALPA is not the first group in US history to have this happen and I am sure it won't be the last.
10 years can still add up to quite a lot at the salary pilots are paid. As far as forced out at 60, they knew that when they took the job. That's what my group is always told when we voice a complaint. take it or leave it. I know that crunching contributions into 10 years would be hard but other people do it. It would most likely affect the extra house, new cars, clothing, and various other toys that some of these pilots enjoy.
As for my previous post, I was not being sarcastic just one of my views after 20+ years at this company. Personally, I think the days of "pensions" are over as we know them and I also think that the contributions will be lowered for 401K plans as well. But again, this is just one little view.
I have one little house, 2 old(12+ years) cars and I still come to work everyday with a smile on my face. I put back what I can in my 401K and try to at least do a minimum contribution to a ROTH IRA every year. All of my basic needs are met and I still manage to fit in a few intl trips for the family.
I have a college degree and yes I know they have to retire at 60. Still watching a retired pilot friend spend his 1 million dollar lump sum payout. Pensions unfortunately are not guaranteed with all the loopholes out there. ALPA is not the first group in US history to have this happen and I am sure it won't be the last.
10 years can still add up to quite a lot at the salary pilots are paid. As far as forced out at 60, they knew that when they took the job. That's what my group is always told when we voice a complaint. take it or leave it. I know that crunching contributions into 10 years would be hard but other people do it. It would most likely affect the extra house, new cars, clothing, and various other toys that some of these pilots enjoy.
As for my previous post, I was not being sarcastic just one of my views after 20+ years at this company. Personally, I think the days of "pensions" are over as we know them and I also think that the contributions will be lowered for 401K plans as well. But again, this is just one little view.
PITbull
Veteran
- Dec 29, 2002
- 7,784
- 456
Schatzee,
I respect and understand your point of view. But, what elicits change is "protest". Realty becomes what we allow to take place. Purpose of unions, besides the obvious, is it allows for "collective thought; collective action as one mind set.
So, DPRP will cease to exist in corporate America only if we allow this to take place. 401Ks will be decreased only if we "fear" higher authority or "powers that be".
This is why we post; to gather opinions, and find a commonality. You accepted a 401K and had your pension froze:
a) because you were not organized at that time
B) some; not all, who share your view, were young enough to participate in the 401K as an alternative. However, if you were 55 years old, which some of your collegues were, would find it more difficult to have an acquiescing attitude I would bet.
I respect and understand your point of view. But, what elicits change is "protest". Realty becomes what we allow to take place. Purpose of unions, besides the obvious, is it allows for "collective thought; collective action as one mind set.
So, DPRP will cease to exist in corporate America only if we allow this to take place. 401Ks will be decreased only if we "fear" higher authority or "powers that be".
This is why we post; to gather opinions, and find a commonality. You accepted a 401K and had your pension froze:
a) because you were not organized at that time
B) some; not all, who share your view, were young enough to participate in the 401K as an alternative. However, if you were 55 years old, which some of your collegues were, would find it more difficult to have an acquiescing attitude I would bet.
autofixer
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 1,804
- 241
My cars are a 1992 and 1994, so no more "holier than thou" attitude please. Yes we knew when we hired on to this 3rd rate airline that we had to retire at 60(some of us never applied to U because we knew it was just that, 3rd rate outfit; unfortunatly we ended up here anyhow)...but we had a retiremet plan that addressed that! I am tired of p&$$ing in the wind! You people just don't want to get it! Like I said before, the pilots should just say, "Atlas Shrugged."
Slam&Click
Member
- Aug 24, 2002
- 90
- 0
"[a href="http://www.fltops.com/pilotpension.html"]Pilot Pension Situation Explained[/a]"
This is just a brief explanation of the pilot pension situation, in general, and airline industry specific. Just thought it might be interesting for those that want an overview of who, what, when, why, where and how.
This is just a brief explanation of the pilot pension situation, in general, and airline industry specific. Just thought it might be interesting for those that want an overview of who, what, when, why, where and how.
T-bone
Advanced
- Feb 15, 2003
- 239
- 2
Alpa is as much to blame as the company here, because managment was dumb enough to sign on to alpa,s pension plan. The biggest reason the plan ran into trouble is the million dollar out. This was especially poignant after 09/11/01 when many of the retiring pilots excersised that option and sucked the money away. Robbing from Peter to pay Paul (stealing the other employee groups funds for your own) only makes matters worse. You dug the hole. Figure your own way out.
RowUnderDCA
Veteran
- Oct 6, 2002
- 2,123
- 1
Thanks, Slam & Click. By the way, I think you and I may be in similar boats.
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