Airbus won the top up order

[robbedagain]

looking back on that slot swap deal to me i just think it was a bad idea bec us should had been able to make lga work in particular but mighty hard to do with the little rjs that cant.. i thought that the 787 had a lower casm than the 330-300 esp in light of the fact the 787 has a much lower fuel burn and is mostly composite.... i think itll be interesting to see how much dp is going to give away just to get the merger done.... if it gets the final approval. what makes you say that aa is now needing the merger i know for a long while you were dead set against it

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

The 333s will be the lowest CASM aircraft on the Pacific including against AA and UA's 787s - and will give DL enormous ability to generate profits with minimal investment compared to its peers.

A330 has better operating costs than B787? Can you provide any numbers to back this up?

 

[WorldTraveler]

CASM by aircraft type is reported to the DOT by US carriers and is displayed in Aviation Daily. Based on the most recent data, the 333 has a fleet CASM of 6.3 compared to 7.0 for the 332, 7.4 for the 764, 8.3 for the 763, 8.5 for the 772, and 7.4 for the 744.
The 787-8 has not been in service long enough to have DOT data but Boeing targeted the 787’s CASM against other medium sized twins, not the 333 which is a large twin. The 333s CASM is 25% lower than the 763 which is exactly why the 787-8 is being targeted as a replacement for the 767. The 787-9 will likely come in with an even lower CASM which will justify it as a replacement for the 772 but the 333 still has a 25% lower CASM than the 772. The increased number of seats that DL has on the 333 offsets the incremental fuel burn that newer generation aircraft have. The lower ownership costs lock in the CASM difference.

I will be happy to be proven wrong if the 787 comes in with a CASM lower than the 333 but I don’t think the 787 will offer a CASM low enough to overcome the 333s CASM which is already 25% lower than other aircraft.

It is because of the significant CASM advantage that the 333 has that DL does not see a need to invest twice as much in an aircraft that will provide minimal advantages, primarily around range that DL does not need.

 

[LD3]

I also know that AA has fallen too far at this point for AA to be able to regain the position it once had any other way except thru a merger with HP.

So Delta didn't need the NW merger to be in the position it is right now?

 

[WorldTraveler]

I never said that. DL is what it is BECAUSE of the merger - what NW brought to the table (and network) but equally as importantly because DL made the merger happen very well and is now adapting the network to be much more focused on nonstops outside of Japan.

Next year will mark the 5th summer after the merger and the number of routes outside of Japan that DL is operating continues to grow. Yet, DL still is the largest carrier of local US-Japan traffic between the US and Japan. DL is building on precisely what they gained from NW but adapting to the changing marketplace, driven in large part by the devalued yen.

The 330s will do a great deal to help solidify DL's position in all of Asia by allowing the longest range aircraft in DL's fleet - the 777s to operate from the interior of the US to China, the 330s and 767s to build SEA into a powerful and competitive hub to SFO, help DL grow in LAX-Asia, and allow them to put the lower cost 333s on routes that might not support the costs and capacity of the 744 anymore but don't require the range of any of the 777s.

And DL is doing this with "current generation" aircraft that it undoubtedly got for a low price plus other bennies, and DL is apparently paying for this purchase in cash. IOW, DL is growing its Pacific network by 5 or more flights over the next 3 years and doing so with cash.

NW handed DL a great network and many assets including its people but DL is not resting on what DL or NW accomplished in the past to move DL forward.

 

[Dalmd88#2]

Still not sure how anyone can say that DL hasn't met an airplane it won't like..

Through the jet era we have operated almost everything at one time or another. Sure some are merger or short term need to fill a mission, but they were on our operation.
DC-8,9,10; MD80,90,95(717), -11; B 727,747-100,-400, 757-200,-200ER,-300, 767-200,-300,-300ER,-400ER, 737-200,-300,-700, -800, -900ER; A-310, 319, 320, 321, 330-200, -300; L-1011-1,-200, -500; C-880.

About the only frames I can thing of that we didn't operate are the B707, A-300(did we get some from Pan Am?), A-340, and A-380.

 

[metopower]

No A300's but you missed 777-200er and 777-200lr

 

[WorldTraveler]

And I have flown as a passenger on every one of those types in DL colors except for the 880 and 747-100, and the 717 and 739 which haven't yet entered service for DL.

My point was that a lot of people said that DL would be running into all kinds of extra costs and operational complexity when it merged with NW and gained all kinds of new aircraft types - and even considerably different procedures and equipment for even the 757 which was all that DL and NW had in common. Now with all of the big 3 merged or merging, fleet complexity isn't that big of a deal because every one of the three will have significantly different fleets including many of the same families that DL now has.
WN probably does gain a certain amount of efficiency and lower costs because of their single fleet type and downwardly-standardized cockpits but they have a very different business model and aren't able to do the same things that the network carriers do in terms of where they fly.

Thus, the fleet complexity which the big 3 have/will have only really matters among themselves and where they compete directly with WN (or AS) and where the extra costs of that complexity add costs. The big European airlines have equally complex fleets.

Further, DL's purchase of the 330 and 321 isn't really that big of a deal in part because the 330 is in the fleet and DL appears to be taking the same tact with the current 330s and new 330s as they took with the 777ERs and LRs -identical or nearly identical cabins even though technically different aircraft.

The 321 is a stretch of an existing aircraft which means the biggest obstacle to commonality - the ability of pilots to move within the family on short notice is no more of an issue than it is with the 8 or so versions of the 757s and several versions of the 763, something AA, DL, and UA have been able to do for decades.

DL also has offset some of the extra costs involved with their diversified fleet by providing maintenance services to other airlines, essentially having other carriers help subsidize DL's fleet complexity.

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

No A300's but you missed 777-200er and 777-200lr

And L1011-250. They were -1 models modified (with a Lockheed purchased kit) by cutting out the center spar sections and beefing them up, adding straps to the upper wing z-channels, and converting the center dry bay to a fuel tank. All that work was done in house at the Delta TOC. I beleive there were six total completed. Those were done around the same time the DC-8's pylons were being modified for the new engines and sale to UPS.

Those titanium tear straps on the L1011 were a nightmare.

 

[LD3]

Glenn,

How much more fuel was the aircraft able to haul?

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

Glenn,

How much more fuel was the aircraft able to haul?

It added an extra (approx) 8000 gallon (approx 50,000 lb) capacity.

 

[wings396]

And L1011-250. They were -1 models modified (with a Lockheed purchased kit) by cutting out the center spar sections and beefing them up, adding straps to the upper wing z-channels, and converting the center dry bay to a fuel tank. All that work was done in house at the Delta TOC. I beleive there were six total completed. Those were done around the same time the DC-8's pylons were being modified for the new engines and sale to UPS.

Those titanium tear straps on the L1011 were a nightmare.

From what I recall, the DC-8 71's stayed in in fleet for several years prior to being sold to UPS. This was one of my all time favorite AC in the DL fleet to ride on. I was also able to get on the 880 several times along with the 747-100's. Have to say that the 880 was a real blast.

 

[robbedagain]

i loved the tristar.. it was real quiet and comfortable to ride on...

 

[Hatu]

Delta Shuns Boeing Dreamliner, Buys Airbus Ordinary-Liner


ATLANTA (TheStreet) -- Call Delta(DAL_) the airline industry contrarian on aircraft purchases.

While other carriers line up to buy the newly introduced Boeing(BA_) 787 and the not-yet-introduced Airbus A350, Delta just bought 30 Airbus A321s and 10 Airbus A330-300s, reliable but ordinary aircraft, for delivery between 2015 and 2017.

"If everybody behaved like Delta, the boom jetliner market would collapse," said Richard Aboulafia, vice president of consulting firm Teal Group. "Everybody else is in an arms race, and Delta is doing the exact opposite." Delta, it appears, does not suffer from "FOMO," the fear of missing out. Its first 787 is due to arrive in 2020 and it does not have an A350 order.

http://www.thestreet.com/story/12029723/1/delta-shuns-boeing-dreamliner-buys-airbus-ordinary-liner.html?puc=yahoo&cm_ven=YAHOO

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

From what I recall, the DC-8 71's stayed in in fleet for several years prior to being sold to UPS. This was one of my all time favorite AC in the DL fleet to ride on. I was also able to get on the 880 several times along with the 747-100's. Have to say that the 880 was a real blast.

They were sold to UPS in 1986 and leased back and not transferred until after the pylon mods were completed and the aircraft painted UPS colors during 1988-89 (IIRC).