Agent/Management/Planner Survey on Jetnet

[Oliver Stone''s Apprentice]

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On 2/22/2003 7:32:30 AM WingNaPrayer wrote:

The 100% fullcoveragenodeductiblenocopaymentabsolutelyeverythingiscoveredevenyo
rmistressboobjob plan for the executive management group.

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More lies.

My wife worked in benefits before she was furloughed. Executive management is covered under flex benefits, just like the TWU, agents, support staff, and all other management are.

That's all available in SEC filings, by the way, if you bother to look.

But Wing would rather have you believe otherwise.

 

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On 2/24/2003 6:08:04 AM WingNaPrayer wrote:

You are the perfect drone employee. Just the type that Two Faces stirs up his daily kool-aid for.

Everything you say AA has made possible for you is going to be taken away. The only question that will remain is how long will you be able to afford to work for AA. How long will it be before reduced wages and cuts in benefits will take it's toll on your family?

Those of you who are ready and willing to take pay cuts should just line up and voluntarily do it, and leave everyone else's paycheck alone.

AA isn't going to survive as the airline they are today. Face it, if you sucker in to the pay/benefit cut bullcarty, all you will succeed in doing is making sure that when the airline does collapse, that you will be piss-poor and deeper in debt.

Wake up A77, you're a pawn in AA's chess game. . .chattle. . .a bargaining chip, and you're part of who Carty has been telling everyone is at fault for all of AA's problems...Labor! But don't worry, everytime he slaps labor in the face to the press, or to congress, he turns around and issues a new jetwire telling you all how important you are and what a great team you are. . .and scapegoats like you take another sip of kool-aid and swallow it all down, hook...line...sinker...sunk!

Remember, it's easy to say, so get used to it...repeat after me....

would you like fries with that?
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It sounds to me like you are the one making kool aide. Nothing is forever. I knew that when I started with this company and industry. And if you didnt know that when you started than I dont know what you have been smoking. Pan AM...Eastern..Western...Reno....TWA...Braniff....they were all once great carriers and are no longer around. But I will do my part to try and help save AA. If the company folds than I will move on with life.

It is amusing to me how you blame Carty for all the airline troubles. I guess in your mind he is to blame for UA...USAIR...NWA...CO...DL and all of their troubles. We excelled in the 90's on the business fare ticket and you got fat off their money and I didnt hear you complain about Crandall or carty when times were good. The Airline industry runs in cycles and this happens to be a very bad cycle. He is not to blame...the unions are not to blame...the non management is not to blame. It is mixture of problems...but if the unions fail to see the problem we are in than they will speed up the process of of watching AA go away. I for one would never sit back and watch this airline disappear. Management is not the workgroup screamin (full pay till last day) I have heard plenty of TWU and APFA and APA say they could care less if the company folds as long as they get full pay.....SDAD SAD SAD

 

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On 2/24/2003 847 AM A77IGW wrote:

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On 2/24/2003 6:08:04 AM WingNaPrayer wrote:

You are the perfect drone employee. Just the type that Two Faces stirs up his daily kool-aid for.

Everything you say AA has made possible for you is going to be taken away. The only question that will remain is how long will you be able to afford to work for AA. How long will it be before reduced wages and cuts in benefits will take it's toll on your family?

Those of you who are ready and willing to take pay cuts should just line up and voluntarily do it, and leave everyone else's paycheck alone.

AA isn't going to survive as the airline they are today. Face it, if you sucker in to the pay/benefit cut bullcarty, all you will succeed in doing is making sure that when the airline does collapse, that you will be piss-poor and deeper in debt.

Wake up A77, you're a pawn in AA's chess game. . .chattle. . .a bargaining chip, and you're part of who Carty has been telling everyone is at fault for all of AA's problems...Labor! But don't worry, everytime he slaps labor in the face to the press, or to congress, he turns around and issues a new jetwire telling you all how important you are and what a great team you are. . .and scapegoats like you take another sip of kool-aid and swallow it all down, hook...line...sinker...sunk!

Remember, it's easy to say, so get used to it...repeat after me....

would you like fries with that?
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[/blockquote]
It sounds to me like you are the one making kool aide. Nothing is forever. I knew that when I started with this company and industry. And if you didnt know that when you started than I dont know what you have been smoking. Pan AM...Eastern..Western...Reno....TWA...Braniff....they were all once great carriers and are no longer around. But I will do my part to try and help save AA. If the company folds than I will move on with life.

It is amusing to me how you blame Carty for all the airline troubles. I guess in your mind he is to blame for UA...USAIR...NWA...CO...DL and all of their troubles. We excelled in the 90's on the business fare ticket and you got fat off their money and I didnt hear you complain about Crandall or carty when times were good. The Airline industry runs in cycles and this happens to be a very bad cycle. He is not to blame...the unions are not to blame...the non management is not to blame. It is mixture of problems...but if the unions fail to see the problem we are in than they will speed up the process of of watching AA go away. I for one would never sit back and watch this airline disappear. Management is not the workgroup screamin (full pay till last day) I have heard plenty of TWU and APFA and APA say they could care less if the company folds as long as they get full pay.....SDAD SAD SAD
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well i see wing is online and i cant believe i am waiting for another personal attack...well I need a good laugh maybe that is why

 

[WingNaPrayer]

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On 2/24/2003 847 AM A77IGW wrote:

It is amusing to me how you blame Carty for all the airline troubles. I guess in your mind he is to blame for UA...USAIR...NWA...CO...DL
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Not at all. Carty is responsible for AA only - the buck stops with him period.

Ignorance is bliss, but when you control the livlihoods of over 100,000 people, there is no room for ignorance, feigned or otherwise.

 

[flydcoop]

A77IGW - First, let me say how much I appreciate your recent posts of how you are trying to get along with everyone (ex. not blame). Thank-you!

It may not be coherent due to the late hour but I will attempt to explain the "full pay to the last day" stance, as it is mine. I am completely open to work rule changes within reason. I've heard UA wants to implement a SCHEDULED day of 16 hours for F/As. That is just inhumane! Imagine the legality proplems if they experience OSO (inevitable).

The problem with labor is we just DO NOT believe a word out of Upper Management's mouths. It's not that we don't realize we are in trouble, we know we are. We just feel they are "milking" it or keeping something from us.

This comes from our extremely drawn out contract negotiations (seemingly designed to "wear us down", we stood firm...how much did that cost?) and from having to fight tooth and nail for every little thing. We have to watch our HI3s like hawks, even if it's in the contract...I swear the bureaucracy is designed to wear us down.

Also, during the last APFA negotiation...do you remember "Your World" training? What a colossal waste of money! It disappeared after 9/11. For those of you that don't know..."Your World" was a REQUIRED training program for F/As for 2 days. An outside consulting firm was hired to teach how to better deal with irate paxs and your own reactions...good so far. However, you were required to stay at a hotel room AT YOUR OWN BASE...a hotel much nicer than we had layovers in. Great for commuters but wasteful for those that lived in the base cities. Ex. hotel in Bal Harbour in Miami where Clinton stayed during his presidency. We sure don't layover there. So what if the MIA F/A wants to be at home in Broward County, a short drive away.

YOU HAD TO STAY AT THIS EXPENSIVE HOTEL.

This occurred in 2000, supposedly when the problems were starting to surface. Why was this program in place when the same could have been accomplished in an already paid-for conference room?

I say this because I was a "tree-killing" analyst from late-1998 until early 2000. The programs in place are valuable IF THEY ACTUALLY PROVIDE A SOLUTION.

The same unspoken solution for bag mishandlings was there month-after-month. No one in management above us wanted that answer. What was the point of an analyst department that did the same pie charts and graphs in different ways if the core problem was not addressed (NOT ENOUGH CLERKS, manning problems). The same old dance played out meeting after meeting. Minutes of said meeting went out to all and NOT A DAMN THING CHANGED.

As has been pointed out on another thread, it is easy to point and blame but what about solutions and answers?

I don't want to only point fingers. I'll admit I'm ignorant about the exact duties of HDQ from my end but our industry is required to change at a moment's notice. We have too many channels to go through for quick change. Initially, something may be short-term relevant but by the time the "OK" is stamped on, it's yesterday's news. Please, let's streamline things so we can adapt more easily.

A77, we don't want to go by the wayside, we're just fed up and in the immortal words of Twisted Sister, "WE'RE NOT GONNA TAKE IT!"...hopefully, that was a small smile We're all feeling grim.

Again, my anaylst dept had 4 total level 2 managers - 2 @ 28k+/yr, 2 w/ 20+yrs, probably maxed out, 1 staff asst, and 1 level 3 at approx 15 years. Not to mention a level 4 and level 5 over us...at what cost? If a solution is never reached are we merely justifying our positions?

Remember, graphs and Powerpoint means squat to a passenger who says, "I'm never flying this airline again!"

Analysts can spin however they want but the pax is truly the bottom line. That's the most powerful presentation there is.

Hang in there.

Coop

 

[blockquote]
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On 2/26/2003 2:31:05 AM flydcoop wrote:

A77IGW - First, let me say how much I appreciate your recent posts of how you are trying to get along with everyone (ex. not blame). Thank-you!

It may not be coherent due to the late hour but I will attempt to explain the "full pay to the last day" stance, as it is mine. I am completely open to work rule changes within reason. I've heard UA wants to implement a SCHEDULED day of 16 hours for F/As. That is just inhumane! Imagine the legality proplems if they experience OSO (inevitable).

The problem with labor is we just DO NOT believe a word out of Upper Management's mouths. It's not that we don't realize we are in trouble, we know we are. We just feel they are "milking" it or keeping something from us.

This comes from our extremely drawn out contract negotiations (seemingly designed to "wear us down", we stood firm...how much did that cost?) and from having to fight tooth and nail for every little thing. We have to watch our HI3s like hawks, even if it's in the contract...I swear the bureaucracy is designed to wear us down.

Also, during the last APFA negotiation...do you remember "Your World" training? What a colossal waste of money! It disappeared after 9/11. For those of you that don't know..."Your World" was a REQUIRED training program for F/As for 2 days. An outside consulting firm was hired to teach how to better deal with irate paxs and your own reactions...good so far. However, you were required to stay at a hotel room AT YOUR OWN BASE...a hotel much nicer than we had layovers in. Great for commuters but wasteful for those that lived in the base cities. Ex. hotel in Bal Harbour in Miami where Clinton stayed during his presidency. We sure don't layover there. So what if the MIA F/A wants to be at home in Broward County, a short drive away.

YOU HAD TO STAY AT THIS EXPENSIVE HOTEL.

This occurred in 2000, supposedly when the problems were starting to surface. Why was this program in place when the same could have been accomplished in an already paid-for conference room?

I say this because I was a "tree-killing" analyst from late-1998 until early 2000. The programs in place are valuable IF THEY ACTUALLY PROVIDE A SOLUTION.

The same unspoken solution for bag mishandlings was there month-after-month. No one in management above us wanted that answer. What was the point of an analyst department that did the same pie charts and graphs in different ways if the core problem was not addressed (NOT ENOUGH CLERKS, manning problems). The same old dance played out meeting after meeting. Minutes of said meeting went out to all and NOT A DAMN THING CHANGED.

As has been pointed out on another thread, it is easy to point and blame but what about solutions and answers?

I don't want to only point fingers. I'll admit I'm ignorant about the exact duties of HDQ from my end but our industry is required to change at a moment's notice. We have too many channels to go through for quick change. Initially, something may be short-term relevant but by the time the "OK" is stamped on, it's yesterday's news. Please, let's streamline things so we can adapt more easily.

A77, we don't want to go by the wayside, we're just fed up and in the immortal words of Twisted Sister, "WE'RE NOT GONNA TAKE IT!"...hopefully, that was a small smile We're all feeling grim.

Again, my anaylst dept had 4 total level 2 managers - 2 @ 28k+/yr, 2 w/ 20+yrs, probably maxed out, 1 staff asst, and 1 level 3 at approx 15 years. Not to mention a level 4 and level 5 over us...at what cost? If a solution is never reached are we merely justifying our positions?

Remember, graphs and Powerpoint means squat to a passenger who says, "I'm never flying this airline again!"

Analysts can spin however they want but the pax is truly the bottom line. That's the most powerful presentation there is.

Hang in there.

Coop
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I totally respect everything you said, and the Twisted Sister referance made me [img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/1.gif'] What bothers me the most is the people in here that would rather say negative things about the company they work for than try to stay positive. I dont know where you work Coop but I agree we have too many level 1-2-3-4-5-6 managers doing nothing. We also have too many rampers ...mechanics...res agents and other employees doing nothing. I have been on the ramp late at night to see 20$ an hour rampers playing cards smoking cigs and doing nothing.
I have see the APFA fight for wasteful programs just so flight attendants can get paid for doing nothing. I have seen management sweep cost saving ideas under the rug. And dont get me started on our pilots who were ok with staging an illegal sick out that cost the company millions upon millions.
The point I am trying to make is we are all at fault everyone from CARTY on down to the bottom. When we were making money hand over fist we all smiled and accepted our profit sharing check and said nothing about waste. Now all of a sudden there are people out on this board who talk like they are perfect and have had the solution the whole time (WNP) but i bet they cashed there profit sharing check with a smile.
Full pay till the last day will get us into liquidation. If that is what you want please try and take down another company I love AA and want it to stay around.

 

[Winglet]

Gee, I thought staffing, supervision, and strategic planning was a management function.

When I was a senior leader in another organization, I was MY FAULT when the people under my command goofed off and didn't do their job. I guess it's the union's fault when management can't supervise, hires too many people, and is never around when you need them to resolve a problem.

Even Carty said it was airline management's greatest sin to blame workers for the airline's problems. However, we all know that was cynical PR. We're not the problem, but we're going to pay the price because management can't manage.

For me, I admit I screwed up and trusted American Airlines. I left seniority at another company to come here so I could get layed-off. I screwed up . . . I trusted management.

How ironic when a Canadian leads AMERICAN Airlines into bankruptsy. But then again, taking companies into bankruptsy seems to run in his family, doesn't it?

 

[WingNaPrayer]

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On 2/27/2003 11:08:03 PM Winglet wrote:

How ironic when a Canadian leads AMERICAN Airlines into bankruptcy. But then again, taking companies into bankruptcy seems to run in his family, doesn't it?
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Cha-Ching!$!$!$

 

[flydcoop]

A77 - for the record, I am a VERY junior APFA flight attendant. My previous positions have been BMAS coder/lvl 2 MIA, MIA gates, and I started in SERO RES in BMAS.

I'm curious as to what you think wasteful programs the APFA has fought for are...sorta a point/counterpoint. I'm not attacking you at all. I believe you work in (s)Crew Scheduling , I'm curious to hear your side. To me, that is an operational dept, esp. when the WX hits the fan!

From a P/C standpoint, some of the lines are quite ridiculous (as FA MIKEY has pointed out). There has got to be a better utilization available!

Early in my flying career, I chatted with a (an?) ORD F/A who helped out on a bid in HDQ and was explaining the balance with purity/cadence and stations. She said she had come up with super-cool lines but with those were lines she wouldn't wish on her worst enemy. Needless to say, she had immense respect for Crew Sked. Now the other day, I flew a DCA turn from MIA with a 5-1/2hr sit (hotel provided...thank-goodness, I needed a nap). That is rather wasteful unless we get special rates for not overnighting. There had to be other 737's leaving DC!

From a F/A view, sit-times are what kills us, which is why we have a minimum duty day in place. A 3+hr sit wears you out more than flying.

I hope you realize F/As would rather have the "flying" hours. There is a good reason 4:45 min. day is in place. Not to mention the company can average that out over the duration of the trip.

Also, please realize we sign in 1 hour before departure which triggers our TAFB pay (I believe) at a whopping $1.85/hr. If we have a mechanical, we make the same amount until we block from the gate (unless ground-time becomes an issue).

I can say that coming from other "full-time" departments, F/A pay is the most confusing thing in the world.

Granted, higher pay-scale F/As make good money, but they've put in a lot of time to do so (as have agents and rampers...look at those beginning pay scales...eek!)

I am not trying to put AA under when I say "full pay till the last day". Work rules are negotiable first, last resort, pay scale (again, I made $22,000+ last year WITH the raises (no high-time avbl, line-droppers on leaves, etc. I'm thankful the contract provision is in place that allows leaves so I can continue flying, not to mention reserve now means minimal hours).

I will give up shift differential 'cuz I like to fly at night. However, galley does deserve a bit more (F/C esp.) Y/C not as much unless dinner is involved, which is rarely these days.

Don't think I'm never saying never...I will review everything, do my research and make my own decisions. As stated previously, I would prefer work rule changes vs. an actual cut in pay.

I have 7 years with this company and I truly hope to retire from them but I'm also not accepting wages that will make me eligible for food stamps. I think I'm very realistic in my wage requirements. Unfortunately, I don't believe Executive Management is on the same page...they serve on many boards and have their "parachutes" in place. I truly don't believe they have as vested an interest as us "lifers" do.

Many of us "vent" on management, I don't believe that is intended for lvl 2/3 management. Management means Executive to us and that distrust has been in place for years. We don't trust them as far as we can throw them.

Above all, I'm ANGRY. Mind you, passengers and co-workers never see it but inside I seethe. I inadvertantly fell into exactly the right airline for me (MIA base, international destinations that fascinate me). When I started AA was the Holy Grail of the airline industry. Cash on hand, business-savvy, and conservative. It's been p*ssed away over the years and to all you naysayers, it's not union contracts. I swear, Carty couldn't spend money fast enough. Arenas, terminal expansions, thinking the premium-business Golden Goose was forever. Sorry, my philosophy is "what goes up, must come down". It's cyclical, you need to save for a rainy day.

I don't claim to be "business-savvy" but what shocked me the most was when we were making "hand-over-fist" money, we were still carrying debt. Profit-sharing and bonuses were the norm.

In "lay(wo)man/working(wo)man terms, don't know about you, but if a bundle of cash comes my way, that credit card debt is gone, because it costs much more in the long run. To be fair, maybe this debt was like a mortgage with a penalty for early payment, I really don't know but could they really have thought the GOOD-TIME 90'S were never-ending?

Full-disclosure, I have less than $1,500 in credit card debt and I HATE IT. I'm looking for a 2nd job to 86 it.

Again, I'm ignorant from an MBA point-of-view, if you view the obvious that I'm not understanding, please explain it to me.

Thanks!

Coop

 

[Oliver Stone''s Apprentice]

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On 2/27/2003 11:08:03 PM Winglet wrote:

When I was a senior leader in another organization, I was MY FAULT when the people under my command goofed off and didn't do their job. I guess it's the union's fault when management can't supervise, hires too many people, and is never around when you need them to resolve a problem.

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Assuming your previous leadership position was in the military, you had the ultimate advantage of knowing your subordinates wouldn't question your command authority unless it was immoral or illegal. Not that they couldn't, but that they wouldn't.

In the military. being higher in the food chain meant that you could make decisions based on what was best, as opposed to what complied with the contract.

If you reprimanded someone in your command, only to have a platoon leader intervene on their behalf, what would your reaction be? What if your platoon or unit decided to work to rule to protest one of your orders?

What happens to a soldier who is caught sleeping at their duty position? Contrast that with what happens to a clerk caught sleeping in their car while they're on the clock...

Management can only be as effective as the environment permits them to be. When we can actually get rid of the people (management or non-management) who simply draw a paycheck but don't actually produce anything, this would be a much better place to work.

Instead, we have shop stewards who will defend to the end someone who is caught on video entering a cabin service supply room but not exiting for five hours, or someone who claims to be out on a back-injury but is caught working a side job as a construction worker...

 

[fredmartens]

Short time lurker, shorter time poster, long time AA flyer, short time AA stockholder here. It's sAAd to me to watch the sniping going on within this forum. I hope it stops.

Plain and simple, I love flying this airline. I enjoy 99.9% of the AA people that I come in contact with, be they the EXP desk, GA's, FA's, AC people, deadheading pilots sitting next to me in FC, whatever. I'll spend a few extra grand just taking purely discretionary trips this year on AA for the heluvit so that I feel better about doing my part to keep this A/L going.

I hope y'all get this crap figured out, the flying public is getting as tired hearing about it as you are going through it. I'm with those who think that Sr. mgmt isn't doing diddley to hold up their end of the "cutbacks" bargain. I'm more pi$$ed off about the SOS program ending than the service cutbacks I deal with twice a week. I want to see you people happy, I'd love to see this all work out for the best. I have, however, run a small business succcessfuly for several years, so the Polyanna glasses don't work nearly as well as they used to.

I don't have an answers, only words of support and encouragement. I think the frontline employees of this company are doing a great job every day going about doing their best in the face of all that's going on. I'm proud to fly AAmerican, proud to be closing in on my first 1MM miles with AA. I'm not alone. You folks need to now that there is a large population of FF's out there that know what you're going through, appreciate what you're doing, and have your future in our thoughts daily.