Aa Vs "lowcost"

[flyguy767]

Dallas Air Mach, what's wrong with protecting and looking out for your profession? The Pilots do it. The Flight Attendants do it. TWU like all catch-all unions want to lump us into a union that we end up not having a say in the operation. Most of us are licensed, the lower classifications that TWU represents are a one-day-of-training-carreer. I've been there I know. These lower specialities have the same chance that you or I do to become a licensed professional. These people should have used the lower classification that they are now in as a "stepping stone", getting their foot in the door in the airline industry and better themselves by moving up to a mechanic class. If they are happy throwing bags or loading gallies or providing us with parts as a career, that was their choice. I don't know about the rest of the stations, but at MCI as TWA we offered anyone the opportunity that wanted to a chance to become a mechanic in a 3 month school. The hours were easy and the cost was payroll deductable. After 3 months anyone that went to the school was guaranteed a mechanics job. The stores and janitors I asked about why they didn't go to the school replied: Iv'e been here 15 or 20 years, if I became a mechanic I would have to go to twilite shift and lost my weekends off. I only make a couple of dollars less that you, so why should I become a mechanic. I am not concerned with anyone that has had a chance to better themselves but passed up on the opportunity. That was their choice. Live with it. AMFA is looking out for the professional. I don't know about you, but that's what I am, and I want to be looked out for by AMFA. The lower specialties will still have their TWU looking out for them, they just won't be riding on my coat-tails in doing so.

 

[Buck]

little replied to my questions. He did not answer them. little is a liar. He told me that the NWA AMT's fight during their negotiations with NWA & a PEB were not our fight. WRONG


Ken, and AMFA, You want to involve all unions to fight together, but yet you want to discriminate against your fellow brothers and sisters within your own airline?
Why is that you and AMFA want all airline mechanics (workers) including plant maintenace but will not fight for lower classifications, stores and fleet service? I see this as discrimination, I know your going to disagree, but Fleet and stores are a part of the AIRLINE INDUSTRY,
I prefer a union that saves jobs, helps all classes, all work groups, instead of a ORGANIZATION who picks and chooses who they will represent, WHAT HA AMFA done for anyone outside of their representation? How has AMFA or what Has AMFA to legislate any assistance to any AIRLINE employee? Politically? How many jobs has AMFA saved anywhere when a base was closing or threatened to close? How many times has local, state or federal government came to assist and prevent layoffs or base closing?
AMFA is not a union, AMFA is only concerned about themselves,
AMFA chooses to discriminate against stores and fleet, goes to show, whats down the line? whos next to be discriminated by AMFA?

No one is disciminating against the "lower classifications". The National Mediation Board determines the Craft and Class. Your solution would be to petition the NMB for a redress of their previous decesion.

As for descimanation, why in the last concessionary debacle did the mechanics end up with two half sick days and the "lower classifications" did not?

Fleet Service and Stores are part of the Industry, but not the Craft and Class as determined by the NMB. It would appear that the TWU has done well for the "lower classifications" or any sensible member of these "lower classifications would be attempting to replace the TWU as their representitive.

I prefer a union that saves jobs, helps all classes, all work groups, instead of a ORGANIZATION who picks and chooses who they will represent

At what cost do you prefer this to happen? Every contract since 1983 has been concessionary, at least for the mechanic craft and class.

WHAT HAS AMFA done for anyone outside of their representation?

As a member of the mechanic craft and class, AMFA has done more to promote my profession than any other organization involved in represention. Only when the mechanics attempt to leave the TWU does the TWU begin to take notice. What has the TWU done?

 

[Rusty]

little replied to my questions. He did not answer them. little is a liar. He told me that the NWA AMT's fight during their negotiations with NWA & a PEB were not our fight. WRONG


Ken, and AMFA, You want to involve all unions to fight together, but yet you want to discriminate against your fellow brothers and sisters within your own airline?
Why is that you and AMFA want all airline mechanics (workers) including plant maintenace but will not fight for lower classifications, stores and fleet service? I see this as discrimination, I know your going to disagree, but Fleet and stores are a part of the AIRLINE INDUSTRY,
I prefer a union that saves jobs, helps all classes, all work groups, instead of a ORGANIZATION who picks and chooses who they will represent, WHAT HA AMFA done for anyone outside of their representation? How has AMFA or what Has AMFA to legislate any assistance to any AIRLINE employee? Politically? How many jobs has AMFA saved anywhere when a base was closing or threatened to close? How many times has local, state or federal government came to assist and prevent layoffs or base closing?
AMFA is not a union, AMFA is only concerned about themselves,
AMFA chooses to discriminate against stores and fleet, goes to show, whats down the line? whos next to be discriminated by AMFA?

Dallas Air Mach, you started off with a valid concern but, then you fell off into the industrial union cultist lies. We are not discriminatory, as many in here have said time and again it's a matter of alignment (setting aside corruption). Currently the industrial unions are aligned along company lines rather than by Craft and Class lines. The current approach has been unsuccessful against the encroachment of company executives who's agendas are to take all earnings of a publicly traded(owned) company for themselves, major stock holders, while dumping down labor costs to justify their cause. To continue down this path would be self destruction of our Craft and Class. As Bob Owens has suggested many times, the ground workers also need to align along their Craft and Class lines or they will continue to fail also. Unionism is not about pitting one union against another, it is about standing united for a cause with strength coming from the real threat of withholding your labor. Baggage handlers, fleet service (ground Workers) can be a real threat as no bags at pick up, no people fly, no people fly, no money for the greedy.

 

[Dallas Air Mach]

Most of us are licensed, the lower classifications that TWU represents are a one-day-of-training-carree


FLYGUY, The majority of AMT's are non liscensed mechanics, this is another area of concern for mechanics, AMFA before long will ask to only represent A&P mechanics, claiming as you said of the baggage handlers, riding your coat tail, that the non liscense mechanics outnumber the A&P, someone will always be riding your coat tail

Also Flyguy, sure the pilots are their own union as is flight attendants, but what about the auto workers? Teamsters? Electrical workers?
The AUTO WORKERS represent all employees involved with building AUTOs, plant maintenace, electircal, assembly line, janitors,shilling and handling, etc
TEAMSTERS represent Truck drivers long haul and Local drivers as well as DOCK workers, mechanics, etc
ELECTRICAL, represents electricians as well as apprentices, helpers, etc



but at MCI as TWA we offered anyone the opportunity that wanted to a chance to become a mechanic in a 3 month school. The hours were easy and the cost was payroll deductable. After 3 months anyone that went to the school was guaranteed a mechanics job


FLYGUY,3 months of school and anyone could be a mechanic? Surely you do not mean as an A&P? It takes 25 months more or less to be a full fledged A&P, and at a cost of $20,000.00. Another thing you state that anyone who took the schooling would be guaranteed a job as a mechanic? I dont think so, not going out the rank of senority?


and I want to be looked out for by AMFA



FLYGUY, may I ask a question? How long have you worked at MCI? Im sure you know that in the your employment at MCI, how many times has your job been threatened? Maybe your one of the lucky ones that never went thru a reduction, but also if you did or if you didnt, Im sure you know how many times has local, state or federal government stepped in to save the base? save your jobs and thousands of others? Maybe Icahn wasnt the best choice to operate TWA, but he was the better ot the 2 offered, and because of the IAM, they did keep jobs at the base, and when Icahn was raping TWA, the IAM found replacements to takeover, 2 shared the CEO duties.
Has AMFA ever saved jobs anywhere?
Some ask why is it that the lower classification didnt get hit as hard as the mechanics? Maybe it is as they say,..............THERE IS STRENTH IN NUMBERS

 

[Dallas Air Mach]

No one is disciminating against the "lower classifications". The National Mediation Board determines the Craft and Class. Your solution would be to petition the NMB for a redress of their previous decesion


Buck, why do you or I need to petition NMB? If AMFA truly wanted to be fair and represent all involved in the operation involved in the airline industry, they would petition for us? Why is that AMFA would choose Plant maintenace, who other than being mechanics has no involvement with aviation maintenace? That is what I find discriminating, AMFA states they want to represent all in the airline industry, yet its AMFA own admission that the lower classification, STORES< FLEET< RAMP, do not belong to a mechanics union? To me, AMFA is saying that the lower class isnt needed, or a slap inthe face saying the mechanics are better than they are, which is all wrong



As a member of the mechanic craft and class, AMFA has done more to promote my profession than any other organization involved in represention. Only when the mechanics attempt to leave the TWU does the TWU begin to take notice. What has the TWU done?



Buck, What has AMFA done for profession? I know from your past posts you dont agree with political involvement by unions. But I also recall from past messages from you, You were and are against RTW, I recall your anxiety when Oklahoma passed the RTW, I also know AMFA did not help fight to keep Oklahoma free of RTW, and Dave Stewart also didnt aid because as I recall Dave said, " the RTW does not apply to RLA"

I am curious tho Buck, Please share what AMFA has done?
Another statement you made Buck, pertaining to past concessionary contracts, Not only TWU has shared in concessions, all unions have gone thru this, but as long as we have democracy, we will have power to vote for or against contracts, and its as you said earlier, in this case, the YES votes were riding your coat tail. It wasnt the lower classifications.
As long as there are ORGANIZATIONS such as AMFA, raiding, we will always be subject to concessionary contracts, because, the companies see the unions divided and take advantage of the workforce. Companies konw the strentgh of the membership, how many attend union meetings, how many would be willing to sacrifice paycuts, benefit cuts, etc, and they act on that

 

[flyguy767]

Dallas Air Mach, you have posted a sh*t load of questions at me. I will make every attempt to answer each and every one if you give me some time to look back and respond. If I missed something, ask again and I, like all other AMFA supporters, will give a reply. Stay tuned. Licensed or un-licensed, we will still be represented by AMFA, a no license, is YOUR loss of $5 per hour. We still answer to the FAA. Don't care about the Auto workers, Teamsrers, Electrical Workers, not part of my aviation (AMFA) union. Yes, Dallas, we did offer anyone at MCI a mechanics job if they completed a 3 month course (sheet metal) $3000. Or a 6 month course (Avionics) $5000. No they did not get a license, they had to do the same as you or I, By putting in 18 months in the hangar, for their A, or building 2 for their P, and be signed off by a supervisor in order to take the A&P test, if they were a lower classification, they would hold that senority, but would start at zero as a mechanic. That's why most of them would not even attempt to become a mechanic, didn't want to go to twilite with odd days off. But that alone got their foot in the door as a mechanic!!! When this school was offered, (in the 90's) TWA was looking high and low for mechanics, They even went to the Air Force, but most were staying in because of the "RE-UP $10,000 bonus. Believe it or not , Most that were qualified, couldn't pass the fu*king drug test! I know about the cost of an A&P, I did mine on VA in '73 fresh out of the Army(3 years). As far as "one of the lucky ones", yes I dodged the lay-off bullet by going to Saudi Arabia. I now have almost 30 years with TWA/AA (TWA had a contract with them from the early 60's until I came back in the mid 80's) I spent 4 years in the armpit of the middle east, in the desert, in the middle of nowhere. I paid more for water than you guys did for gas. Please don't cry on my shoulder about being "DISPLACED". Been there, done that. My local government has been great! I will vote for them again . In Kansas City, every one in the government has pushed for our surivial. I have not seen one politician against us, from K.C. Mayor to the State Senator. They have always backed us. That's why we are still here today, CITY GOVERNMENT. Don't get me started on Ichan and Lorenzo. I've met one on one with the Ichan clan, to the dismay and disfactistion of the IAM. In a nutshell, yes we had the lesser of two evils. The only reason that the IAM agreed to the concessions that we gave up was the fact that they were raping us too. If I haven't answered your questions in entirety, ask again. Like I said before, you asked alot in a short post. If I missed something, I'll get back with you.

 

[Buck]

Buck, why do you or I need to petition NMB? If AMFA truly wanted to be fair and represent all involved in the operation involved in the airline industry, they would petition for us?

I do not need to petition the NMB, I am within the craft and class. Those at TUL that are outside the NMB determined craft and class have shown no desire to have AMFA do anything. If the "lower classifications" as you put it, wanted to remove themselves from Industrial Unionism representation, they do have the option of the Allied Ground Workers. AMFA is a craft union, the "lower classification" as you put it, has to the best of my knowledge, yet to petition AMFA for membership. It would also take a Constitutional change and that would be voted on by the membership. What is this "fair" BS you are crying about. The mechanics have been the step children of the TWU since it's inception. Now when they begin to show some solidarity and the TWU is feeling the heat, the crying starts.

Why is that AMFA would choose Plant maintenance, who other than being mechanics has no involvement with aviation maintenance?

Because the NMB says so.

Why do you insist that those outside the craft and class of the mechanic and related are "lower classification?"

Buck, What has AMFA done for profession? I know from your past posts you dont agree with political involvement by unions.

AMFA is consistently promoting our profession. They contact members of congress on items that pertain to those issues of airline maintenance. They also have their members do most of the contact work. They do not depend on an organization who has little or no interest in their craft.

But I also recall from past messages from you, You were and are against RTW, I recall your anxiety when Oklahoma passed the RTW, I also know AMFA did not help fight to keep Oklahoma free of RTW, and Dave Stewart also didn't aid because as I recall Dave said, " the RTW does not apply to RLA"

That is true, I opposed RTW, mainly because it is outside the scope of the Railway Labor Act. On a ratio, I most likely did more to deter RTW than the AFL-CIO and their affiliates. If labor wanted to prevent RTW they could have done so. The TWU has done more to promote the criteria of RTW than any anti-labor business in the state of Oklahoma. The lowering wages and benefits, a goal of the RTW big business can take lessons from the TWU, they have been practicing anti-labor for decades.

Another statement you made Buck, pertaining to past concessionary contracts, Not only TWU has shared in concessions, all unions have gone thru this, but as long as we have democracy, we will have power to vote for or against contracts, and its as you said earlier, in this case, the YES votes were riding your coat tail. It wasnt the lower classifications.

The airline industry at one time was historically cyclical. As the economy ebb and flowed, the work force change with it. With the advent of Deregulation, the TWU saw the opportunity to change the type of dues collection apparatus by moving away from attempting make gains for it's members and gaining more dues payers at the cost of premium wages. The whole labor movement has suffered under the TWU, especially the airline industry. As for the YES votes, members of unions tend to believe what their Representative tells them. What choice have they had, the union or the company. Now the TWU is so in bed with the company, that the membership is questioning it's ability to represent them.

As long as there are ORGANIZATIONS such as AMFA, raiding, we will always be subject to concessionary contracts, because, the companies see the unions divided and take advantage of the workforce. Companies konw the strentgh of the membership, how many attend union meetings, how many would be willing to sacrifice paycuts, benefit cuts, etc, and they act on that

You cannot seriously believe that the membership or even the readers of this board will fall for this one. You are attempting to blame the TWU's inability to provide representation on AMFA. The company knows the strength of the TWU and that is the TWU's inability to represent. Why is it that meeting attendance is so low at TUL? Why should the members sacrifice any of the items you listed?

What they act on is the division the TWU has created on it's own.

 

[twuer]

Very impressive buck. . . you are starting to sound ike Bob!!! Long winded!!!!!!

 

[Buck]

And correct!

 

[twuer]

I'll just stick with impressive!!!!

 

[Buck]

I'll just stick with impressive!!!!

Because you are afraid of the truth?

 

[twuer]

You know, you might have something there Buck!!! I am afraid of amfa's truth. I see you haven't made any comment(s) on the latest amfa screw-up regarding the bail out on the UAL retirees!!!!!!!!!! As a matter of fact I don't remember you commenting much (if any) on the fact that Delle prefers BK over concessions either. What's wrong, you can't handle the amfa truth????????

 

[Buck]

I am not concerned with the performance of AMFA at this time. I am concerned with the performance of the TWU, as they have been the bargaining agent for my contracts for the last twenty years. The concessionary performance by the TWU is what I have had to live with.

How can you claim to be a union man and condone a concessionary contract at every negotiation?

At what point will you finally make a stand and defend your profession?

What allegiance do you hold to the TWU?

What allegiance do you hold to the AFL-CIO?

As for the BK, what is wrong with AMFA or TWU challenging the company instead of rolling over as the TWU has done?

 

[Bob Owens]

As long as there are ORGANIZATIONS such as AMFA, raiding, we will always be subject to concessionary contracts, because, the companies see the unions divided and take advantage of the workforce. Companies konw the strentgh of the membership, how many attend union meetings, how many would be willing to sacrifice paycuts, benefit cuts, etc, and they act on that

Explain how giving the TWU competition for the membership gets concessionary contracts?

The fact is that every time there was an AMFA drive we were less impacted by concessions than the other groups. If there is another union raiding it puts more pressure on the incumbant union to do better, not worse.

The reason why we keep getting concessionary contracts is because the TWU International keeps cutting deals with the company so the company can grow and provide the TWU more dues payers. Since International officers are not accountable to the members they can do this with impunity, unless of course another union is raiding.

Keep believing the rhetoric from the leaders who blame the members and be prepared to keep giving concessions. Leaders who fail to motivate are failed leaders, its not the memberships fault. Are you a masochist? Why would you belive such crap? Change the leadership! The only way to do that effectively is to change unions.