AA, USair, AWA flight attendants and new contract

[galley princess]

Rather than refer to the respective unions, I would like to start a real conversation between AA, US and AWA flight attendants.  Right now, it's pretty clear that none of us are being well represented.
 
The two union leaderships have their own interests, and they're not necessarily reflecting ours.  Unfortunately, that leaves us on our own to manage the situation. 
 
The long and the short of it is:
-AA has a contract.  Signed by Ms. Glading, it is APFA's CLA.  It's concessionary, the product of a "better than what we're facing now" environment.  It is possible to change it, but subject to arbitration. 
 
     Here's the thing:  Arbitrators are paid by corporations.  They do not get re-hired it they are pro-labor.  So they tend to make decisions bent toward the corporation.  Bottom line, they are not who you want making decisions for your future.
 
(Case in point: USairways has the most abysmal rest area on flights in the industry.  Brought to you by an arbitrator).
 
-Usair has a contract.  Five years long.   Yup, we just got it.  We regarded it as concessionary.  With the threat of losing any right to vote on anything, the third time it was submitted- read-shoved down our throats, it passed.
 
For most US flight attendants, the issue is not AFA.  We would be happy with a union called MS. GLADING'S LOVELY BIRDS if it meant that we could negotiate the BEST of both APFA and AFA's contracts.  But there is complexity here.  From what I understand, to get to this, we have to ditch them both.
 
Hear me well.  Most of us DO NOT CARE if Ms. Glading runs the union we pay dues to.  You can keep your reps, all your stuff.  However, there is a complex game that has to be played here, and it is in the hands of the AA flight attendants.  As it stands, certain actions cause an election.  AA outnumbers US.  There is NO danger of AA flight attendants losing control.
 
The reason for an election is to extricate AA flight attendants from  the concessionary CLA that ends in arbitration.  That's all.  Once extricated, both the CLA and the Usair contract can be pulled from to create something more favorable to all flight attendants at the new AA.  Once again, AA has the numbers, so any agreement will reflect their will.  No one else's.  Why is it important to US flight attendants?  Because if you don't take these actions, we lose everything we have ever negotiated and fall under your CLA.  Your concessionary CLA.
 
That reality would make the new AA management ecstatic.  24,000 flight attendants in a concessionary contract for a minimum of 7 years.
 
To avoid this, you have to jump through the complicated hoops.
 
Ms. Glading can run the new union.  You can keep all of your people.  Just give us a chance to re-negotiate.  There is an opportunity here, but the machinations of the people that are supposed to represent us are starting to get in the way.
 
The message that we are being given is that AA flight attendants think that they have the best that they can get, USair took too long to get a contract, their union is trying to do an end run and CWA wants your money, yada yada.
 
(The Usair contract took too long because AWA management recognized it for the bargain that it was and ran it out.  Serious negotiations didn't happen until the threat of a strike.  It is SICKENINGLY ironic that we are about to repeat history with a concessionary AA contract that the new AA management will definitely run out until forced to negotiate again.  Figure about 7 years).
 
I find it impossible and incomprehensible that 16,000 AA flight attendants do not have the intellectual curiousity to investigate what USair flight attendants have in their contract.  60%, sure.  We have them too.  Just happy to accept what they're given and complain about it later.  But all 16,000?  Surely some of you want the best deal you can get?
 
AWA management negotiates HARD.  They give nothing away.  They expect their opponents to do their best, just as they do.  There is no morality here, just business.  Mr. Parker once famously said :  "you get what you negotiate".  Take him at his word.
 
A little history; Prior to 9/11, Usair had some of the best, if odd and arcane language in Flight attendant contracts in the industry.  Negotiated by smart, tough, ethical Pittsburgh women who didn't trust anything but solid language, they protected US flight attendants for a long time.  During the 90's US management tried to dismantle these protections, even hiring an outside firm that specialized in union busting.  They succeeded at some things, but not most.  Enter 9/11 and bankruptcy contracts and we STILL had some good language.
 
The most important of that language was the ME TOO clause.  Basically, whatever pilots got, we got.  And we flew as a crew.  No splitting up.  No you go here and I go there.  It protected flight attendants because airlines tend to mess with flight attendants but not pilots.  The reason this history is important is because with our new contract, we just lost that protection; i.e. pairing of pilots and flight attendants on all trips.
 
It potentially creates more flexibility for flight attendants, but also a huge window for abuse. 
 
Hence, we come to the USair contract.  The current US contract contains specific and hard language pertaining to scheduling.  That's because the majority of flight attendants did not want to break from the pilots, knowing they would be prey for scheduling.
 
This is just about to hit in force in the new year, and it's already causing consternation.  It's about 3am, and you're supposed to be able to go home, but scheduling is re-routing you to some God awful thing. Oh, and it's your kid's birthday.  Without specific and hard language, you have nothing.  You're re-routed.
 
As I understand it, AA's CLA has a provision for PBS.  So does the US contract, but with a ton of language.
 
That language = MONEY.  Right now, it is sitting on the table, and in serious danger of being left there, unless AA flight attendants recognize it, and want it.  Again, it's complex stuff, and seems largely theoretical, but when PBS comes slamming down on your life, you're going to want it.
 
A few relevant details:
Health insurance: US' is better. Again, that's MONEY folks.  Money that is either in your pocket or theirs.
Vacation: US' is better.
Compensation: Overall, US is better, however, I think that we could do better still.  Southwest significantly exceeds us both.
Retirement:  AA's is vastly better.
 
The choice is yours.  You have the numbers.  If just 4500 of you decide you want a true second shot at a contract, we get to vote.  There is no way to get a real second shot at contractual gains without this.  If you allow your CLA to go to arbitration, we all lose.
 
This does not mean that AFA "wins".  The makeup of a "combined union" is also up to the membership.  It doesn't have to be CWA and frankly, it doesn't have to change much from what you have.  Like I said, we care less about what it is called than what is DOES.  I, for one, would like a new representative body.
 
Many would have you believe that APFA can re-negotiate the CLA and take the best from both contracts in the short time before it goes to an arbitrator.  I have cited the specific language regarding Usair's PBS, that alone would take significant time.  The best you will get is a little money, and then we all have your CLA.  That is not the BEST we can do.
 
If AA flight attendants do not act, the shame of it all is that in the estimated 18 months to full merge, they will have the luxury of time to learn all of the differences that USair had, but didn't carry over, because union leaderships were more interested in preserving their own future than that of their members.  Lost opportunities are painful indeed.
 
Ask yourself, why is your leadership so determined to subject your future to an arbitrator?  What's in it for you?
 
The AFA website does have good information about contractual differences.  I wish that APFA would do the same, it would be useful to see a different reading.  It would also be useful if one or either gave us frank, honest language about the legal issues and how this all falls together.
 
I think we're all here to learn.  Different views are welcome.  If you're not a flight attendant, kindly do not use this thread as an opportunity to grind your ax.  Much appreciated.
 
 
 
 

 

[RJcasualty]

This latest merger is reminding me of a piece of French pastry, press too hard and it falls apart.

 

[AdAstraPerAspera]

Two thoughts: 
 
1) The AFA-CWA folk I have heard from at US Airways have repeated that they should be the ones to negotiate with Parker & Co because they have the experience to do so. That argument doesn't impress me much when I look at the track record. Plus, Doug Parker has already indicated that he will be negotiating productively with the APFA in both word and deed-- it would be counterproductive to backtrack at this point, but some insist that is what they want to have happen.
 
2) The "me too" clauses, while very nice sounding, are DOA. Language like that is archaic, unpractical and uncompetitive now that the industry has to implement the new FAA fatigue rules for pilots. I have very little confidence something like that can be negotiated back.
 
I appreciate hearing your perspective though, and thank you
 
-astra

 

[galley princess]

Thank you for your response, Adastra.  Actually, I don't think anyone is arguing that AFA negotiate the CLA.  The only thing US flight attendants want is to keep the good stuff that we have in our contract, but that requires AA flight attendants to consider it.  You can't consider it if you won't look at it.  Who actually negotiates isn't as important as WHAT they negotiate and whether or not they do it in a venue best for the flight attendants.  Negotiating with a an arbitrator at the end virtually assures that the new AA will run out the clock.  All that we are asking for is another venue.
 
As for productive bargaining with AA's new management, keep in mind, they bargain for themselves and expect you to do the same.  You get what you negotiate.
 
I am perplexed at your conclusion that I wanted to re-instate the "me too" clauses.  They are certainly dead.  I only referenced them to emphasize the resources put into the PBS language in the US contract. 
 
Does AA currently have PBS?  Did you know that there are many versions?  US was supposed to have it years ago, but the union and the company couldn't come to an agreement on WHICH program to use.  There are vast differences and they affect how flight attendants get their schedules and how they get paid.
 
How does AA manage cancelled trips?  In the US contract, if our last trip of the month is cancelled, we still get paid for it.  If an outbound leg cancels but the return leg or continuing trip is flown by others, we still get paid.  Do you? 
 
How many hours can you be on duty?  In the US contract we can stay on duty over 18 hours.  After 16:01 we start getting 200% pay.  When do you time out?
 
These are some of the things that become important.  If yours are better than of course US flight attendants would prefer yours, but what if ours are better?  Would you rule it out, simply because they are a product of AFA?
 
Thanks.

 

[galley princess]

Wow, I got my first heckle by number, now we're cookin'!
 
Another fun fact:  As of right now, AA treats retirees and active the same.  AWA removed that from USairways when we merged.  Active have a higher boarding priority, reasoning, that active need to return to work.
 
In the US contract-- a negotiated item-- Flight attendants RETAIN active boarding priority even in retirement.  No other work group has it and it is our negotiated item.
 
If, the new AA changes retirees to a lower boarding priority, wouldn't you like to have our rule carry over?
 
I realize that AA has indoctrinated you in the idea that flying benefits are subject to their will and can be changed any time, but at US they are viewed as part of our compensation, and taken very seriously.

 

[Mach85ER]

Question on the planet you live on:



Are their bunnies and kittens sliding down every rainbow along with unicorns playing in your yard?



Good luck renegotiating, you'll be doing that for the next decade. There are enough FA's to schedule seperate pairing for both groups for that amount of time and probably forever if you decide to press the issue.



Serious question:

What is the percentage difference between top pay at LUV compared to LCC and AAL?

 

[RJcasualty]

The opening salvos of a mess. APFA has been traditionally suspicious of any advice from outsiders--- especially if you don't have leverage. Hopefully a representational election with contrasting platforms will enable the masses to make an informed choice. It might even push APFA to co-opt some of AFA's more sensible suggestions

 

[AdAstraPerAspera]

Thank you for your response, Adastra.  Actually, I don't think anyone is arguing that AFA negotiate the CLA.  The only thing US flight attendants want is to keep the good stuff that we have in our contract, but that requires AA flight attendants to consider it.  You can't consider it if you won't look at it.  Who actually negotiates isn't as important as WHAT they negotiate and whether or not they do it in a venue best for the flight attendants.  Negotiating with a an arbitrator at the end virtually assures that the new AA will run out the clock.  All that we are asking for is another venue.
 
As for productive bargaining with AA's new management, keep in mind, they bargain for themselves and expect you to do the same.  You get what you negotiate.
 
I am perplexed at your conclusion that I wanted to re-instate the "me too" clauses.  They are certainly dead.  I only referenced them to emphasize the resources put into the PBS language in the US contract. 
 
Does AA currently have PBS?  Did you know that there are many versions?  US was supposed to have it years ago, but the union and the company couldn't come to an agreement on WHICH program to use.  There are vast differences and they affect how flight attendants get their schedules and how they get paid.
 
How does AA manage cancelled trips?  In the US contract, if our last trip of the month is cancelled, we still get paid for it.  If an outbound leg cancels but the return leg or continuing trip is flown by others, we still get paid.  Do you? 
 
How many hours can you be on duty?  In the US contract we can stay on duty over 18 hours.  After 16:01 we start getting 200% pay.  When do you time out?
 
These are some of the things that become important.  If yours are better than of course US flight attendants would prefer yours, but what if ours are better?  Would you rule it out, simply because they are a product of AFA?
 
Thanks.

 
I completely agree that we need to take a hard look at the best work rules to incorporate from both sides, absolutely. Maybe someone who is more familiar with our contract can speak to some of the specific questions you have-- I know PBS is on the horizon somewhere but I don't know of a hard and fast timetable for it. Some of the senior mamas who have never experienced prefbid before sound pretty terrified of it. I worked at a carrier that had PBS and I liked its flexibility. Also, my pay protections at my old carrier were far and away better than AA *or* US… lineholders got full pay for any cancellation, whether at the end of the month or not.

 

[eolesen]

Another fun fact:  As of right now, AA treats retirees and active the same.  AWA removed that from USairways when we merged.  Active have a higher boarding priority, reasoning, that active need to return to work.
 
In the US contract-- a negotiated item-- Flight attendants RETAIN active boarding priority even in retirement.  No other work group has it and it is our negotiated item.
 
If, the new AA changes retirees to a lower boarding priority, wouldn't you like to have our rule carry over?
 
I realize that AA has indoctrinated you in the idea that flying benefits are subject to their will and can be changed any time, but at US they are viewed as part of our compensation, and taken very seriously.

I'm sure you'll disagree, but if travel benefits apply to all employees, represented and non-represented, they need to be applied equally, regardless of the employee's job description or workgroup. In my limited view, that includes management and executives as well. Reserved space for executives isn't my idea of equality, but at least they're getting hit on their W-2' for the fair market value of the space they're occupying for personal travel (which does not happen for anyone other than executives).

 

[galley princess]

The basic answer to that is you get what you negotiate.  As I said, at US, non rev benefits are regarded as part of our compensation.  AA's employees' rather passive view is self defeating, to us, however we do recognize that umpteen years of being told that "it's a privilege" etc. does have an effect.
 
There is a significant difference between administrative management and crew.  Management careers rely less on the product and more on the trajectory of their advancement.  You can sell airline tickets or tomatoes, it doesn't really matter which, as they both require marketing and management of resources.
 
Crew are on an airplane, by its very nature a more tumultuous environment.  Everyday.  It is reflective of the career that the employees develop different ways of living and different needs to maintain the craziness of the career.  Most of the industry recognizes this and hence air crew are active and constant in their non-revving, and there are provisions for it.  After careers of thirty to forty years, this lifestyle doesn't suddenly change.  US f/as recognized this and put it in their contract.
 
Another fun fact from the US contract: we have "no commute" clauses.  Basically a get out of jail free card that can be used limited times.  The F/A  has to make up the time, but provided that they prove they had backups and a good faith effort, the failure to commute doesn't become an "event".  Again, a negotiated item and worth something.
 
If I had to guess, I would think that the new AA management will do as they did at US when they took over, and defer toward the needs of the corporation, which requires active employees to be in place.  Retirees got a lesser boarding category to facilitate this.  It is neither right or wrong, it just is.  At the same time, US f/as and now AA f/as have the right to maintain a negotiated benefit in their contract.

 

[galley princess]

Congratulations to the leaderships of APFA and AFA for recognizing that the needs of the members require them to work together.  There were many "ifs" in the released statement of agreement, however hopefully they can work cooperatively and harness the best of both AA and US contracts, which is all that the two groups require and deserve.

 

[IORFA]

We have the same in regards to commuting. In fact, have had it for years. Just need the target flight and one back up. This benefit of not being able to commute also has no restriction on how many uses. If the criteria is met, then it is no problem. Maybe ours is better? Seems you haven't read our contract yet, even though you seem so sure it is crap. Plus we also have many, many rules in our contract in regards to PBS. Thus the union doesn't think it is going to happen anytime soon. We also have full month pay protection in the contract as well. It isn't as bad as you would like to make it seem.

 

[IORFA]

The biggest "IF" is that management has to agree to the biggest stuff. I'm not so sure they will. So it might just be an exercise in futility. This kumbiya moment.

 

[Bob Owens]

but at least they're getting hit on their W-2' for the fair market value of the space they're occupying for personal travel (which does not happen for anyone other than executives).

Because positive space for personal travel isn't available to anyone other than executives.

 

[galley princess]

Actually, IORFA, you're the first poster to give any details about AA's contract.  I am really glad that you have these protections in your contract, it's less that has to be re-negotiated.  My main point of these posts is to share information.  Contracts are large unwieldy documents and often hard to read without context. I wish anyone luck with understanding our reserve section. That section of your contract is undoubtedly better than the US convoluted mess.  Also, I have heard that you have better layovers than we do, so that's a hopeful gain.  I really hope that your staffing is better than ours!  And you can't do worse than our rest seats on transatlantic unless yours are on the bathroom floor.
 
 I think the more we share, the more we know what to target in a joint agreement.  I do not think your contract is crap, I am just concerned that it is the product of bankruptcy.  Been there, done that.  Really want to avoid doing it again.
 
US f/as are largely a nice bunch.  US is the product of MANY mergers, so you won't find us closed to different ways of doing things, rather we just want the best of what is out there.  This joint agreement is an opportunity, hopefully not wasted.