AA Sues SkySteward.com

[Mach85ER]

A closer analogy on your Best Buy example would be them stopping by a local store, and loading up on flat screens at cost. And I suspect that if Best Buy has such a program for employees, a board member would be able to do just that as long as they whip out their credit card.

Yes, I know that the D3 rates are not the full retail or market value of the seat, but it's better than nothing.

There are other carriers who don't do the reserved space travel for their executives or board members. Instead, they just issue them a UATP card (or another type of payment card), the executive buys their tickets as needed, and the company pays the bill. Some only reimburse up to a certain amount each year; anything over that, the executive or board member becomes liable for. I think it's a decent alternative to imputed income.

What I'd recommend as an employee travel package (if anyone cared to listen) is to manage it like is currently done for some workgroups with uniforms, or a healthcare savings account: Load up the bank with "AA Bucks" based on seniority or even job level, and allow leftover credits to roll over from year to year. Those who use the privilege the most wind up paying their way, while those who travel only once or twice every year could blow the entire wad on one trip.

E,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if your analysis of my "Best Buy" example would be that although they paid for the flat screens at cost, with a full FC, or taking FC seats out of the inventory that would have been sold, there is a substantial possible loss to AMR if Judith Rodin holds a DFW-NRT for her family to fly FC if AA could have sold the seats on theopen market.

There is a big difference between a Best Buy flat screen at cost vs retail, probably not even in the double digit percentage points, and the difference between a D3 FC R/T from DFW-NRT and a full fare F/C fare.

Kayak.com lists a First Class R/T ticket from DFW-NRT at $9000 for a weekday to/from ticket. If Judith Rodin shashays up to the gate along with 5 members of her immediate family and paying (for hypothetical purposes so I don't get a Dee Kelly colonoscopy) around $2200 total, then I'd say there is a problem with a Chapter 11 company giving stuff away for Directors who provide/provided poor over sight while collecting $45,000 of product while paying $2200.

I'll stand corrected, but my analogy of BOD member walking in Best Buy and picking out 5 of the high end flat screens for her family on a whim seems accurate.

 

[Mach85ER]

The fact is, this guy violated company policy, violated passengers privacy and possibly committed disability fraud. He is a bad guy and should be held to account for his misdeeds.

You sound like the legions of radical Islamic lunatics regarding a Dutch cartoonist. In a sense, they are right since he technically insulted their religous beliefs and there are rules for the transgression, but somehow like the Dutch cartoonist, those most sensitive and insulted by the act never ask themselves if the cartoonist had a accurate point in the first place.

It's always a sign of exceptionally crappy and unskilled leadership when they focus on chicken"sheet" stuff like a marginally talented gadfly that may actually have a point amidst their rant.

 

[Veritas]

You have a very different mentality than the overly entitled DYKWIA type EXP's who constantly whine on FlyerTalk. Many elite frequent fliers do care about are obsessed with their upgrades.

And one of those EXP's just obliged and posted the following message:

I, for one, as an EXP, am not at all pleased that:

A. I can apparently be bumped from a seat or even a flight in place of DYKWIA types from corporate.

B. A member of the board of directors on a leisure trip is apparently allowed to hold up a flight for an hour for her convenience causing others to miss connections.

C. AA, while in fairly precarious financial conditions, is apparently making corporate crony business decisions, bonusing executives, and spending lavishly on fancy trips for board members and corporate big wigs.

Had they not filed suit against Gailen I wouldn't have ever heard about some of these things. Lucky for them it's not being very well broadcast to their most valuable customers here on FT (unless of course someone is interested in the tail end of a thread about a parody video).

Of course, that is followed by a vigorous defense of management by one of our very own AApologists, FWAAA.

 

[tom barry]

I suspect David will join the ranks of Joe the Plumber, The Jetblue Slide Blower, and perhaps John Wayne Bobbit....

All got their 15 minutes of fame, got inflated egos along the way, and then had to face the reality that they'd outlived the news cycle that made them famous and had to go find a real job.

Eric, I wasn't "up" on APA's/and APFA's contracts in 1983, But I WAS in the TWU new "B" scale contract effective 2/11/1983. Some stations(work) was outsourced after 2/11/83, and new hires came in with less $$$ etc, BUT the Incumbents got raises, STATION protection(something Horton wants to jettison) etc.

MY POINT.
AA can raise the annual # of departures to determine if a station stays AA staffed(think BDL), BUT it wouldn't kill them to allow those old 83' station prtected guys (again for example/BDL) to wrap up thier carreers in those respective stations. The numbers would be minute. (If a guy got 83' protection at 25 years old, HEL* he'd be 55 now. If they want to close B station AMT, or AF houses, fine, but put those old bas-tards in the bag rooms, or have the old AMT's do paperwork.

As far as guys "system protected", crunch the numbers to make sure there is (system wide) enough jobs on paper to go around. You KNOW a lot of system protected guys are NOT going to leave DFW or LAX or PHX to come to JFK or LGA, so there is MORE savings for the Company.

It's NEVER about the $$$. It's ALWAYS about Job Security and work rules. If the TWU had any balls, they would have put the above issues as UN-NEGOTIABLE !

You'll be surprised to realize, that I'm Not against reduction in force(as in 83'), it's part of Seniority.
Outsourcing IS ANOTHER story !

NOW..E, tell me I'm WRONG or being unreasonable !

 

[Mrs. McFly]

I suspect David will join the ranks of Joe the Plumber, The Jetblue Slide Blower, and perhaps John Wayne Bobbit....

All got their 15 minutes of fame, got inflated egos along the way, and then had to face the reality that they'd outlived the news cycle that made them famous and had to go find a real job.

He most likely will. Once the media he is courting starts really digging into weeds, all will see that no paying passengers are ever bumped out of fc, they just might not be able to upgrade to fc from bc or coach. This is certainly no reason to breach one's privacy.

 

[fltguymk]

He most likely will. Once the media he is courting starts really digging into weeds, all will see that no paying passengers are ever bumped out of fc, they just might not be able to upgrade to fc from bc or coach. This is certainly no reason to breach one's privacy.

Uh, if your upgrade to F was denied to make space for an employee, that is being bumped in my mind. Agents have told me it happens all the time when HDQ management is onboard.

 

[Veritas]

And one of those EXP's just obliged and posted the following message:


Of course, that is followed by a vigorous defense of management by one of our very own AApologists, FWAAA.

And LTRS' response to FWAAA:

<snip>

Now on to the principal points:

Yes, every airline gives perks to its executives and board members. If they do so at the expense of paying and or loyal customers they should not. I'm not only self employed but I own a company. And I abide by the same rules I have I place for my employees. Not only to set a good example, but to be ethical. The "do as I say, not as I do" mentality is a monarchy mentality, and not a business mentality. And given that AA is a publicly traded company it has a duty to run as a business.

I currently sit on the board of one company and previously sat on the board of another organization (other than my own). And I can honestly say I would have been embarrassed out of my skin to use those positions to get perks.

The idea that an AA board member and/or its executives use their position to treat AA as their private airline is beyond the pale. Their primary obligation is to act, at all times, in the best interest of the company. Clearly they do not. Causing 10, 20, 50 or even one pax to be bumped or miss a connection for their convienence is a dereliction of their duty - plain and simple.

<snip>

And how better to set yourself up with millions in stock awards (9x base of $650k in the case of Arpey) than to create a compliant board whose main perk is the ability to treat one of the largest domestic airlines as your own private airline?

Again, the 35 page filing by AA does not dispute a single charge by David. It's very clear they are just pissed that he made the information public and want to silence him. In doing so they indict themselves in my eyes. It's a shame it is being buried. No Pax will benefit from burying this. And FT should be about the Pax. And while AA may be able to legally do these things (I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know) that doesn't make what they are doing the right thing to do.

 

[eolesen]

There is a big difference between a Best Buy flat screen at cost vs retail, probably not even in the double digit percentage points, and the difference between a D3 FC R/T from DFW-NRT and a full fare F/C fare.

Yes, there is. And since the first class cabin arrives at the same time as the main cabin, the revenue premium you're getting for the front of the cabin is all about comfort and flexibility to cancel your ticket on a moment's notice with no penalty.

To put it in perspective, 250 lbs on a 8 hour flight represents about $40 of fuel by one estimate I've seen. Throw in some overhead expenses for the cost of the catering, and you're looking at a cost of carrying someone in an otherwise empty seat for about $100. The airplane, crew, and related overhead are a sunk cost, since they'd be paid regardless if the nonrev was there or not. I've seen fully loaded estimates putting the cost of a pax & bags at $500 for an eight hour flight.

------------------------------

As far as bumping real revenue (as opposed to "I'm an EXP, where's my free upgrade?")... Yes, there's a chance that you'll see revenue denied because of an executive. It's a fraction of a percent.

Assume the number of VPs & MDs eligible to reserve F is 250. Add a spouse for all... 500 individuals. Heck, I won't try to figure out kids, so let's just round up to a total of 800 eligible individuals in the A2/4/5/6 categories.

AA has 1800 flights a day, with a minimum of 16 F seats on each narrowbody aircraft, and 150 widebody flights with an average of 40 premium seats.

That comes out to 32,400 premium seats per day, or 226,800 seats per week.

If every eligible RS travelers were to fly a round-trip every other week, you'd have 0.3% of AA's seats being blocked by executives. More realistically, it is probably less than 0.01% being blocked, since some RS travelers never take advantage of the "perk".

Since very few of AA's flights actually sell out in the premium cabin due to revenue demand, it's probably below 0.001% of a chance.

Statistically speaking, it's less than insignificant enough to spend any more time figuring out the cost of...

An EXP has far greater odds of AA canceling their flight or losing their luggage than they do being denied a seat due to a greedy executive.

 

[FWAAA]

After all the sense of entitlement some of you've claimed EP's have over the upgrades, I find it curiously humorous that there's suddenly all this empathy for the "I paid almost nothing, where's my free upgrade?" crowd....

Agreed.

A frequent topic among Flyertalk whiners is that airline employees are permitted to nonrev in First Class and Business Class domestically for free and internationally for modest service charges as long as there's unsold seats. Most often it comes up when someone new registers and then whines that they were refused a double upgrade (buy cheap O fare, upgrade to biz class and then beg the agent for F) and then, onboard, they saw a bunch of off-duty employees having a party in "employee class" as it's called. To be fair, this complaint shows up in the UAL forum more often than the AA forum, but it comes up.

Every now and then, someone posts that they redeemed miles for Z class award seats in F and then they're offended that there were several off-duty nonrevs having a party with the on-duty FA friends.

All employees with flight benefits can ride in premium cabins if there's unsold seats (and with payment of the service charges for int'l). Some executives and board members get unlimited free positive space in any cabin. When I see employees complaining today that some of that privileged class had the gall to sit in F, bumping some full-fare F or upgraded Biz to F passengers, it sounds rather sanctimonious to me.

Everyone can sit in F and those in charge can do it on a positive space basis. Yawn. Posting names and travel dates of the "offenders" isn't being a whistleblower - it's employees and board members doing what the Proxy Statements have always disclosed is a perk enjoyed by the privileged class. Not a whole lot different from posting the W-2s of the executives.

Yes, the employees are mad that bankruptcy is going to inflict yet more pain on them. And all of a sudden, there's widespread concern for the upgrade class of frequent flyers. GMAFB; it's just employees acting out - and in David's case, he kept it up until he was fired for it. He kept it up after being fired, and now he's being sued for it.

 

[Veritas]

A frequent topic among Flyertalk whiners is that airline employees are permitted to nonrev in First Class and Business Class domestically for free and internationally for modest service charges as long as there's unsold seats.

<snip>

All employees with flight benefits can ride in premium cabins if there's unsold seats (and with payment of the service charges for int'l).

[Emphasis added]

That is incorrect.

There is a surcharge for traveling in premium cabins on both domestic and international flights, at least at AA.

 

[jersey777]

That is incorrect.

There is a surcharge for traveling in premium cabins on both domestic and international flights, at least at AA.

One correction....those with 25 years of seniority do get free first class travel on domestic...not sure about international. I would guess that at nearly half the flight attendants have 25 years of occupational seniority because that includes most of the former TWA flight attendants.

 

[Veritas]

One correction....those with 25 years of seniority do get free first class travel on domestic...not sure about international. I would guess that at nearly half the flight attendants have 25 years of occupational seniority because that includes most of the former TWA flight attendants.

Incorrect. There is always a surcharge for first class and business class travel regardless of seniority.

Take a look at the NRSA charges on Jetnet Non Rev Travel Planner.

Just for an example, the charges for a trip between LGA and DFW would be:

Employee with under 5 years seniority: F - 18.44 ($26.12 with taxes) Y - 6.82 ($13.63)
Employee with 5 Years seniority: F - 18.44 ($26.12) Y - 0.00
Employee with 25 years seniority: F - 11.62 ($18.79) Y - 0.00​

The difference at 25 years is free international coach travel and reduced premium class travel surcharges for domestic and international travel.

P.S. There are less than 800 active former TWA flight attendants, less than 5% of the active ranks.

 

[FrequentFlierCA]

You sound like the legions of radical Islamic lunatics regarding a Dutch cartoonist. In a sense, they are right since he technically insulted their religous beliefs and there are rules for the transgression, but somehow like the Dutch cartoonist, those most sensitive and insulted by the act never ask themselves if the cartoonist had a accurate point in the first place.

It's always a sign of exceptionally crappy and unskilled leadership when they focus on chicken"sheet" stuff like a marginally talented gadfly that may actually have a point amidst their rant.

Are you *really* making one of the most ridiculous false analogies in the history of online debate against me? It is ludicrous to compare what I said with the radical Islamic position toward the Dutch cartoonist who drew the images of Mohammed. Ludicrous.

I'll say it again: Gailen David deserves what he gets for violating AA policy and misusing company information. His information appears to be half stolen and half fiction- who ever heard of AA bumping paying FC pax back to econ for a nonrev? That would get a gate agent fired in about two seconds.

 

[Veritas]

...who ever heard of AA bumping paying FC pax back to econ for a nonrev? That would get a gate agent fired in about two seconds.

Have you read any of the previous messages in this thread?

It happens all the time, in full compliance with company policy, when upper management, retired executives, members of the board of the board of directors and their spouses and dependents travel (even on personal trips).

 

[fltguymk]

Are you *really* making one of the most ridiculous false analogies in the history of online debate against me? It is ludicrous to compare what I said with the radical Islamic position toward the Dutch cartoonist who drew the images of Mohammed. Ludicrous.

I'll say it again: Gailen David deserves what he gets for violating AA policy and misusing company information. His information appears to be half stolen and half fiction- who ever heard of AA bumping paying FC pax back to econ for a nonrev? That would get a gate agent fired in about two seconds.

You have idea what you are talking about.