Aa Screwup Helps Southwest

[WingNaPrayer]

Well then, that settles it. It was all your fault! The employees have no one to blame but themselves. If you have 50% control of the company's stock, then you should have been able to swing votes enough to get the company out of trouble before it reached yet another bankruptcy stage. You didn't do it, you have no one to blame but yourselves.

PS - Just for shitz&gigglez - stock ownership is not company ownership, that's a whole different song and dance.

 

[FWAAA]

Despite the new LAX and FLL service, Southwest will actually be running two fewer daily flights out of STL in March 2004 than they did in September 2003.

More proof that STL is not the land of milk and honey (at least for airline business). B)

The downsizing of the STL hub is sad, but no other city the size of STL has 200+ AA flights today. St Louis still has pretty good air service; lots of nonstops to lots of cities.

 

[MCI transplant]

People, you can spin this anyway you want! The facts are: At the time of "purchase" there were over 20,000 TWA employees! Today, ( I'm guessing) maybe ? I feel the downsizing of both STL, and the overhaul base at MCI, was more a political desison, than an ecconmical one! The bottom line is, and will always be: Has the TWA employee been treated "FAIRLY"? In my estamation, NOT EVEN CLOSE! But who am I??? Signed, just another Redheaded Stepchild!!!!

 

[chisprings]

People, you can spin this anyway you want! The facts are: At the time of "purchase" there were over 20,000 TWA employees! Today, ( I'm guessing) maybe ? I feel the downsizing of both STL, and the overhaul base at MCI, was more a political desison, than an ecconmical one! The bottom line is, and will always be: Has the TWA employee been treated "FAIRLY"? In my estamation, NOT EVEN CLOSE! But who am I??? Signed, just another Redheaded Stepchild!!!!

political decisions? hmm...political how? that is laughable.

were you treated fairly? well your company TWA Inc. failed. Sometimes life isn't fair.

In my estImation, TW employees got a break - some had the chance of continued employment. Despite the TWA employee dreams (they were good at that - remember their fantasies about flight 800 conspiracies?) of Ichan/America West/Boeing rescues - no one else was interested in TWA in Nov. of 2000 and your officers led by Mr. Compton were prepared to close the doors without notice in early Dec. 2000. I know this for a fact. Sorry that's it - TWA failed. Most TW employees who transitioned were stuck in cities like STL that felt effects of drastic service reduction when AA realized (admitted) that former TW operations were loss leaders. I wish things worked out better for TW people - but the cold hard facts are that TW's management over the years left it a piece of crap that could not survive. The employees were great and are probably what kept it going in the end - and they performed admirably at the STL hub for AA, but STL was crap (not the employees - the revenue) and therefore it had to go. I am sorry that TW ended up as crap and that years invested there by many were simply flushed down the toilet with the crap. Life sucks sometimes. Pick up the pieces and move on.

The pont of this thread is simply that Southwest adding a few daily frequencies at STL is not evidence of a mistake in AA pulling service out of there. The TW/AA debate will go on. Step children always think they are treated unfairly.

 

[WingNaPrayer]

The bottom line is, and will always be: Has the TWA employee been treated "FAIRLY"?

Actually, the question is, does anyone actually care? Of course TWA employees are stomping their hooves and crying foul! Airline employees, TWA or not, aren't in a class all their own when it comes to job loss. Any employee, be it individually or as a group, that looses their job for whatever reason will always cry foul and look desperately for someone to blame. It's always someone else's fault. Always.

 

[MiAAmi]

I think when it comes to WN adding a few flights to STL the local media puts a spin on it as though its at AA's expence. WN just cut some service to cities from STL just like AA did. These WN flights might be to new destinations but I'm not sure that they are still operating the same amount of flights from STL.

 

[FibberMcGee]

Actually, the question is, does anyone actually care? Of course TWA employees are stomping their hooves and crying foul! Airline employees, TWA or not, aren't in a class all their own when it comes to job loss. Any employee, be it individually or as a group, that looses their job for whatever reason will always cry foul and look desperately for someone to blame. It's always someone else's fault. Always.

I didn't call in sick and I did my job. You're right. How could I be so dumb? I was to blame for my own job loss. I give up Wing, you win.

 

[TWAnr]

Well then, that settles it. It was all your fault! The employees have no one to blame but themselves. If you have 50% control of the company's stock, then you should have been able to swing votes enough to get the company out of trouble before it reached yet another bankruptcy stage. You didn't do it, you have no one to blame but yourselves.

PS - Just for shitz&gigglez - stock ownership is not company ownership, that's a whole different song and dance.

Your propensity to flaunt your ignorance is astounding.

The reorganized TWA was saddled with the predatory Karabu ticket contract, which had Carl Icahn's lowestfare.com competing with TWA on its own airplanes by giving him an unlimited supply of tickets at 55 cents on the dollar on all fare categories, for all flights except STL O&D, which he then resold at 20% below what the airline charged. The airline could not lower prices to compete with lowestfare.com, as Icahn would then have been able to buy tickets at a 45% discount from the reduced fares.

In addition, the BOD was dominated by representatives of the creditors, not labor.

Actually, the question is, does anyone actually care?

Not about your mindless diatribes.

:down:

 

[WingNaPrayer]

The reorganized TWA was saddled with the predatory Karabu ticket contract

Ahhhhhhh, finally! So tell me, why didn't the employees/50% stock holders step in and oust Icahn and install a CEO, VPs, Board of Directors that would have reversed all that before it was too late? THAT the stockholders can do, but the TWA minions, who as you claim, owned 50% of the company stock, did nothing.

You're arguing because the dead horse that was previously beaten has yet to be turned into glue. AA is not to blame for former TWA employee problems, nor are the AA employees to blame. Too many former TWA employees just want someone to blame, when to hear you tell it, all they would have had to do to help protect their jobs, was flex their 50% stock ownership muscle.

Ponderous, isn't it.

 

[TWAnr]

Ahhhhhhh, finally! So tell me, why didn't the employees/50% stock holders step in and oust Icahn and install a CEO, VPs, Board of Directors that would have reversed all that before it was too late? THAT the stockholders can do, but the TWA minions, who as you claim, owned 50% of the company stock, did nothing.

You have just managed to prove that you are even more ignorant than I thought you were.

Carl Icahn was the sole owner of TWA; during the time at which he controlled the airline, the company was privately held.

Icahn was ousted in the the 1993 reorganization. In that reorganization, the employees received a 45% ownership stake in the company in return for wage and work rules concessions. The creditors received most of the balance of the company stock.

In 1995, it was realized that the operating plans of the reorganization were based on assumptions which were unrealistic and unachievable. As a result, the company proposed and consummated a financial restructuring. During that second reorganization, the employees' ESOP was reduced to 30% of the outstanding shares from 45%. The Karabu ticket agreement came into being during this second reorganization, in return for extension of loans issued to allow the company to emerge from the first trip through the bankruptcy court. Ultimately, Icahn successfully argued in the courts that the Karabu agreement allowed him to continue to purchase an unlimited supply of heavily discounted tickets even after the loans it was intended to repay were paid in full.

In plain English, the employees had no ownership stake during the Icahn years and, despite having control over a significant portion of the company stock, no voting majority even after Icahn's ouster.

 

[WingNaPrayer]

Carl Icahn was the sole owner of TWA; during the time at which he controlled the airline, the company was privately held.

...And there ya go. NOW will you all stop blaming AA employees for your plight?

I swear, what it takes to yank an ounce of truth out of a former TWA employee is like pulling teeth with tweezers!

 

[MCI transplant]

TWAnr---- Forget it! This bunch just don't want to hear it! They've got it all figured out, and nothing we say well mean anything to them! Just don't try and cloud the waters with the facts! Signed, just another redheaded stepchild!!!! :down:

 

[latreal]

WNP you are wasting your time. Somehow the twa emps had no control over anything, but mgmt follows aa emps lead.
Just let them have a pity party. They obviosly have nothing better to do yet.

 

[L1011Ret]

First we have chisprings going on and on about how TWA was crap - mindless to the fact that TWA had better on time performance than most other airlines and how TWA won JD Powers awards for best service long haul. Then we have WingNaPrayer who repeatedly shows hostility to TWAers and finally latreal who even nAAtive pilots could not stand on SJ's BB. The latter two continuously try to deny TWAers their personal experience and feelings towards AA and some unions at AA. In taking the approach that TWAers ought to feel differently than they do, they set themselves up as Judge and Jury ruling over thousands of TWAers personal experience. Omnipotence at its worst.

 

[latreal]

First we have chisprings going on and on about how TWA was crap - mindless to the fact that TWA had better on time performance than most other airlines and how TWA won JD Powers awards for best service long haul. Then we have WingNaPrayer who repeatedly shows hostility to TWAers and finally latreal who even nAAtive pilots could not stand on SJ's BB. The latter two continuously try to deny TWAers their personal experience and feelings towards AA and some unions at AA. In taking the approach that TWAers ought to feel differently than they do, they set themselves up as Judge and Jury ruling over thousands of TWAers personal experience. Omnipotence at its worst.

then we have you with nothing better to do in your old age but keep crap going.

dont know who you might be refering to, but i have NEVER had one nrgative thing said to me by a NAATIVE AAer. But my feelings would not be hurt if that was the case.
You do a lot better staying on Jacks fan board with "feel sorry for us" rants.