AA Management and Cargo Airlines

[MCI transplant]

<_< ----"So where else can they cut " How about their bonus to begin with! Why should management profit from it's own incompetence at the expence of it's employees? If indeed it wasn't incompetent, it wouldn't need those concessions in the first place to compete, and bonus would be in order! :huh:

 

[Hopeful]

<_< ----"So where else can they cut " How about their bonus to begin with! Why should management profit from it's own incompetence at the expence of it's employees? If indeed it wasn't incompetent, it wouldn't need those concessions in the first place to compete, and bonus would be in order! :huh:

MCI, youre wasting your breath again. The management defenders here will tell you that their bonuses are in stock and really doesn't cost the company anything.
They're better than you and me because they wear suits and ties.
You know, because compared to executives at other companies, our executives are poverty stricken and we need to pay them to keep them at AA so they don't take their talent elsewhere and help the competition meanwhile they helped this company find its permanent place at the bottom of the DOT rankings and it's all because we have the highest labor costs and still have a pension and retiree medical.

 

[BoeingBoy]

MCI, youre wasting your breath again. The management defenders here...

Facts are facts and take no sides in the argument. Just because you don't agree with the facts or would rather pretend they don't exist doesn't make the one providing the facts a management defender. I just means you can't refute the facts so resort to personal attacks.

<_< ----"So where else can they cut " How about their bonus to begin with!

OK, so you've come up with less than half a percent of $1 billion. Where's the rest coming from to match UPS and FedEx compensation? I'll also ask if you've ever read AMR's prospectus which outlines the executive compensation? If you had you'd know that the execs received no cash bonuses in 2006, 2007, & 2008 (the years covered by the last prospectus available) other than the AIP bonuses that all U.S. employees get (a few hundred dollars each). They did exercise some of the options in 2008 that were granted in earlier years for a total profit of less than $5 million dollars.

Hopeful, you can play this game too - where would you suggest that AMR get the money necessary to match UPS and FedEx employee compensation. You could take those executive bonuses and give each employee about $77 a year, or less than $2/month, less than 50 cents/week, a little over 2 cents/hour. (I assumed about 65,000 U.S. based employees since I was too lazy to look any number up - it would be a little higher/lower depending on the actual number).

Jim

 

[Hopeful]

Facts are facts and take no sides in the argument. Just because you don't agree with the facts or would rather pretend they don't exist doesn't make the one providing the facts a management defender. I just means you can't refute the facts so resort to personal attacks.

Actually I was not referring to you. Besides, is calling someone a management defender a personal attack? Do you consider that derogatory?

OK, so you've come up with less than half a percent of $1 billion. Where's the rest coming from to match UPS and FedEx compensation? I'll also ask if you've ever read AMR's prospectus which outlines the executive compensation? If you had you'd know that the execs received no cash bonuses in 2006, 2007, & 2008 (the years covered by the last prospectus available) other than the AIP bonuses that all U.S. employees get (a few hundred dollars each). They did exercise some of the options in 2008 that were granted in earlier years for a total profit of less than $5 million dollars.

Hopeful, you can play this game too - where would you suggest that AMR get the money necessary to match UPS and FedEx employee compensation. You could take those executive bonuses and give each employee about $77 a year, or less than $2/month, less than 50 cents/week, a little over 2 cents/hour. (I assumed about 65,000 U.S. based employees since I was too lazy to look any number up - it would be a little higher/lower depending on the actual number).

Jim

SHRINK TO PROFITABILITY....
I would accept being restored to 2003 wages and benefits. And that would be around 38 an hour. No where near UPS or FEDEX or SWA for that matter.
This company, with the help of the TWU took away 40 years of bargaining and now they want more to just to get back one item here, one item there....in return.

Tell me why pilots don't give up the scope? Why won't you fly 5 hours more a month?
there's more to AA's labor costs than just aircraft maintenance.
Tell us about some of the archaic pilot goodies that are enjoyed by that work group.

And please don't tell me I'm changing the subject. This has become the "maintenance is causing AA to lose money" forum.

 

[BoeingBoy]

No, you're not changing the subject - it's just that most of the posts are about maintenance so that's what I reply to, but as I said before I'm not and never was an AA pilot so know almost nothing about their contract and even less about their concession negotiations in 2003.

Like anyone, I can look up their pay rates on Airline Pilot Central, I know they kept their pension and retirement medical (as I think everyone did) and that's about all I know.

And shrink to profitability hasn't worked long term for anyone. If it worked TWA or PanAm might have ended up buying AA.

Jim

 

[TWU informer]

Whatever, Bob. I'm guessing the whole concept of different operating models as described in the other thread was lost on you as well.

Really all Airlines have a different operating models at least that seems to be the argument when trying to get approval from the DOJ for codeshare agreements.

No other airlines has a operating model that includes SRP/OSM/ASM's and surely no other business model includes the overhead and mismanagement of AA. There are so many variables in pensions, benefits, work rules, skill level, productivity management overhead that there is NO APPLE to APPLE comparison.

 

[Hopeful]

No, you're not changing the subject - it's just that most of the posts are about maintenance so that's what I reply to, but as I said before I'm not and never was an AA pilot so know almost nothing about their contract and even less about their concession negotiations in 2003.

Like anyone, I can look up their pay rates on Airline Pilot Central, I know they kept their pension and retirement medical (as I think everyone did) and that's about all I know.

And shrink to profitability hasn't worked long term for anyone. If it worked TWA or PanAm might have ended up buying AA.

Jim

Looking at your avatar, I assumed you were an AA pilot. Frankly I am not concerned with what any other work group earns. And, frankly, I could care less what an executive made....but that was until CartySERPgate...We took it in the shorts with a gun pointed at our heads. Major concessions were forced out of us, and they still want a ZERO cost contract.

So tell me, Jim, how much more should we give.?

The company has the GALL to ask us to make them BEST IN CLASS and give us nothing in return. Don't make me laugh with the lump sum ploy.

I lost $20,000 a year for a to-date figure of $120,000 and in return got 449 shares of stock.
AA stock would have to about $273.00 a share which includes the $5. it cost them.

I am sick and tired of hearing "Oh well, the execuives have contracts, and their PUP pay has to be paid" I am tired of hearing "you people still have a pension"......tired of it.
Tired of their PR game with how generous AA is to us....

They can stick it....
Each day, mor and more of my coworkers are getting fed up with this company, they are doing as little as possible. So am I....

They come to us and say"fix this f/c class seat on the LHR trip" and we give them another placarded f/c seat."

When they respect us, we will respect them.
And Jim, I am not too far from retirement. I am way up there are the seniority list and AA would have to shut down before they get to me.


So I really don't care about AA's crap rankings.

 

[Bob Owens]

Really all Airlines have a different operating models at least that seems to be the argument when trying to get approval from the DOJ for codeshare agreements.

No other airlines has a operating model that includes SRP/OSM/ASM's and surely no other business model includes the overhead and mismanagement of AA. There are so many variables in pensions, benefits, work rules, skill level, productivity management overhead that there is NO APPLE to APPLE comparison.

Exactly, when they pick and choose thats ok, but when we do it its unreasonable. The fact is that when we look at the duties, resonsibilites and skills we are mirror images of our peers at UPS, FED-Ex and SWA but they prefer to look at everything else. Does Goodyear sell tires to those carriers based on their operating model? Does Exxon price their fuel based upon their operating model? Do airports base their fees on on the airlines operating model? The answers are NO, NO, NO. We shouldnt base our wages on them either, if a model is doomed to fail then let it fail so the successful models can expand and hire us.

 

[MCI transplant]

<_< ----- Liston Jim, First it is not the function of the AMTs, or the Pilots for that matter, to Manage this Airline! That's what "Management" gets payed to do! If AA can't afford to pay it's help the going rate, it should get out of the business, and let those working here get on with their lives! From someone who's been there,----- it's that simple!

 

[Rogallo]

When they respect us, we will respect them.

That's what it's all about.

 

[eolesen]

If AA can't afford to pay it's help the going rate, it should get out of the business

Perhaps, but when you start talking about parity, you need to take the whole equation into account.

It's a fact that the majority of airlines (global and US) outsource overhaul, and a large percentage also outsource line maintenance (many to wholly owned subsidiaries).

It's a fact that AMR has a contract with the TWU that doesn't give them any of the flexibility that every other airline in the US has.

It's a fact that the contract with the TWU results in AMR having twice as many people in the maintenance function than any other two airlines combined.


It's my opinion that AMR would rather have the freedom to choose how they manage and staff the overhaul and line maintenance functions.

It's also my opinion the TWU decided that keeping scope intact was more important than keeping your pay intact.


If you want equal pay, scope needs to be adjusted accordingly.

You guys want the pay, and you want to keep the protections of scope.

Try as you may, you can't have both.

 

[BoeingBoy]

So tell me, Jim, how much more should we give.?

That's for the AA employees to decide, not me. While I'd hate to see AA go out of business (I have a nephew working there) if you can negotiate a $1 million/year pay rate more power to you.

Frankly, though, tales of how much you gave up carry little weight we me. During US' two bankruptcies, I lost nearly 50% of my pay, nearly 50% of my pension, 100% of my post-retirement health care, and I've only got worthless options for 100 shares of US stock to show for it. I'll shed no tears for someone who lost less.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

<_< ----- Liston Jim, First it is not the function of the AMTs, or the Pilots for that matter, to Manage this Airline! That's what "Management" gets payed to do! If AA can't afford to pay it's help the going rate, it should get out of the business, and let those working here get on with their lives! From someone who's been there,----- it's that simple!

I guess you can't find a place to get the money for that UPS/FedEs/WN pay yet - you want to tell management what they should pay but when it's time to make the decisions about where that money is going to come from it's suddenly "That's not my job".

You do know that you don't have to wait for AA to go out of business before you can get on with your life - right? UPS/FedEx/WN may be hiring.

Jim

 

[Bob Owens]

Perhaps, but when you start talking about parity, you need to take the whole equation into account.

It's a fact that the majority of airlines (global and US) outsource overhaul, and a large percentage also outsource line maintenance (many to wholly owned subsidiaries).

It's a fact that AMR has a contract with the TWU that doesn't give them any of the flexibility that every other airline in the US has.

It's a fact that the contract with the TWU results in AMR having twice as many people in the maintenance function than any other two airlines combined.


It's my opinion that AMR would rather have the freedom to choose how they manage and staff the overhaul and line maintenance functions.

It's also my opinion the TWU decided that keeping scope intact was more important than keeping your pay intact.


If you want equal pay, scope needs to be adjusted accordingly.

You guys want the pay, and you want to keep the protections of scope.

Try as you may, you can't have both.

As usual full of "facts" but no specifics.

Sure most airlines outsource overhaul, most airlines also do some degree of overhaul as well, its always been that way the only thing thats changed is the percentage, the same goes with line maint.

As far as the flexibility "that every other airline has" what are you talking about? You've made this claim for several years now and every time you are called on it we get no response.

We have around 9000AMTs (less if you are just counting A&Ps at the A&P rates)and UAL has around 5000, our contract doesnt require all those additional heads that you throw in there. So if you take UAL and SWA (around 2500) thats 7500 x 2=15000. Your math is off.

There is no staffing formula for maintenance in the contract other than how many crew chiefs per worker.

As far as scope how is ours different than most other carriers? Once again specifics, not "facts" because you say they are. You should work for Fox News.

 

[Bob Owens]

I guess you can't find a place to get the money for that UPS/FedEs/WN pay yet - you want to tell management what they should pay but when it's time to make the decisions about where that money is going to come from it's suddenly "That's not my job".

You do know that you don't have to wait for AA to go out of business before you can get on with your life - right? UPS/FedEx/WN may be hiring.

Jim

When has a company ever admitted that they can afford to pay more but just choose not to?

Using their figures to get a contract is a losing proposition.

Watch the Mike Quill video on Youtube, I love the spot where he talks about how companies that claimed they dont have the money all of a sudden find the money after the strike starts. UPS said they didnt have the money before their workers struck, they found it and ten years later they are still in business. The NY Transit authority claimed they didnt have the money but right after the strike it was revealed they had a huge surplus.

Maybe AA will only buy 30 new planes next year instead of 40, maybe they wont sink $1.4 billion into JAL, but really, I dont care where they get it from, I want it, and I'm willing to shut them down to get it.