AA forgave pilot union debt as part of concessions

[bingobilly]

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On 7/21/2003 105 PM Mach85ER wrote:

kimmyg,

I''ll keep this short since I''m sure the MENSA may be calling on the telephone any minute.


As mentioned, the fine remaining was about $2000 per active pilot. With the paycuts, I will be down $80,000 per year. In my case the trade off is like paying $8 million dollars just to get out of a $200,000 mortgage.

Makes sense doesn''t it?

By the way, after 13 years at AA flying 130 million dollar airplanes with over a billion dollars of liability, I make what a firefighter can make at a large metro dept, and what a large construction crane operator can make,( saw that tidbit on the History channel ). I also make 1/2 to a 1/3 of what many harbor pilots make.

Cheers,
You only get what you negotiate.


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well if that ain''t funny. I read on this board before when others have said "pilots make too much money and are glorified bus drivers". A pilot will come back and say about training etc etc. Well if you just start out as a loborer work hard and get a break invest some money in a trade school YOU TOO CAN MAKE AS MUCH AS A CRANE OPERATOR. You can also be home every night Sounds like a no brainer. Give up your nice clean easy job a work for a living.

 

[JS]

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On 7/21/2003 105 PM Mach85ER wrote:

kimmyg,

I''ll keep this short since I''m sure the MENSA may be calling on the telephone any minute.


As mentioned, the fine remaining was about $2000 per active pilot. With the paycuts, I will be down $80,000 per year. In my case the trade off is like paying $8 million dollars just to get out of a $200,000 mortgage.

Makes sense doesn''t it?

By the way, after 13 years at AA flying 130 million dollar airplanes with over a billion dollars of liability, I make what a firefighter can make at a large metro dept, and what a large construction crane operator can make,( saw that tidbit on the History channel ). I also make 1/2 to a 1/3 of what many harbor pilots make.

Cheers,
You only get what you negotiate.


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Did you buy the 130 million dollar airplane, or did the stockholders?

Where did "over a billion dollars in liability" come from, and what is it supposed to mean?

 

[Mach85ER]

"Did you buy the 130 million dollar airplane, or did the stockholders?"

Stockholders did. From what I understand, they self-insure it too. If they want Skippy to fly it for peanuts, then I guess they can try. They might choke on the insurance bill far more than todays large premium.

"Where did "over a billion dollars in liability" come from, and what is it supposed to mean?"

Do the math, a few million in jury awards for every passenger, plus potential ground property damage. My post was in reference to a rather uninformed person making a statement on pilot compensation.

 

[JS]

If you''re going to try to use accounting to your advantage, at least use it correctly.

$1 billion is not the liability for one airplane, unless every single flight results in a crash, which is obviously not the case.

Take that $1 billion and multiply by the probability of crashing, and that figure will be the liability. The probability of crashing is very small, so this liability you''re trying to use to justify your pay is pretty tiny.

Are you saying that a pilot''s salary is proportional to his crash rate? If that were really true, it would be raining commuter planes.

 

[Bob Owens]

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On 7/22/2003 2:59:55 PM JS wrote:

If you're going to try to use accounting to your advantage, at least use it correctly.

$1 billion is not the liability for one airplane, unless every single flight results in a crash, which is obviously not the case.

Take that $1 billion and multiply by the probability of crashing, and that figure will be the liability. The probability of crashing is very small, so this liability you're trying to use to justify your pay is pretty tiny.

Are you saying that a pilot's salary is proportional to his crash rate? If that were really true, it would be raining commuter planes.

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Dont you mean divide it?

 

[Bob Owens]

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On 7/22/2003 11:43:23 AM JS wrote:

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Where did "over a billion dollars in liability" come from, and what is it supposed to mean?

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I would say that a pilot bears the ultimate liability.
Chances are if the plane is a total hull loss, he was the first to die.

 

[Bob Owens]

The point of my response was not an attack on the pilots but rather to expose another lie that was told to TWU members.
We were told that the number had to be met, that there would be no reciprocity. But as we see, the pilots, TO THEIR CREDIT did get something, as small as it may be.

Maybe this is just another example of why its better when your union and its leaders are accountable to you and not appointed by someone who never even worked in this industry.

 

[AA80Driver]

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On 7/23/2003 6:36:53 AM Bob Owens wrote:

The point of my response was not an attack on the pilots but rather to expose another lie that was told to TWU members.
 We were told that the number had to be met, that there would be no reciprocity. But as we see, the pilots, TO THEIR CREDIT did get something, as small as it may be.

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The target of 660 million was met and exceeded by the APA. Estimates of the value of concessions range from 660M (AMR) to 1B. They''re probably realistically somewhere around 750M. What exactly was traded for the 26M, I doubt we''ll ever know.

 

[FWAAA]

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On 7/23/2003 640 AM Bob Owens wrote:

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On 7/22/2003 2:59:55 PM JS wrote:

If you''re going to try to use accounting to your advantage, at least use it correctly.

$1 billion is not the liability for one airplane, unless every single flight results in a crash, which is obviously not the case.

Take that $1 billion and multiply by the probability of crashing, and that figure will be the liability.  The probability of crashing is very small, so this liability you''re trying to use to justify your pay is pretty tiny.

Are you saying that a pilot''s salary is proportional to his crash rate?  If that were really true, it would be raining commuter planes.

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Dont you mean divide it?

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I''m certain JS meant MULTIPLY.

For example, if the probablility that the plane might crash on a given flight due to circumstances within the pilot''s control is .00000004 (in other words, the odds are 1 in 25 million), then to determine the expected liability, you would multiply the probability by the value of the aircraft, say, $125 million, to arrive at an expected liability per flight of $5.

To determine the probability, you would divide 1 into 25 million (to arrive at .00000004).

 

[JS]

Good explanation, FWAAA. Probability and "odds" can get mixed up. 1/odds = probability.

Too many state lottery commercials on the boob tube have confused the masses.

 

[Bob Owens]

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On 7/23/2003 8:30:23 AM AA80Driver wrote:


The target of 660 million was met and exceeded by the APA. Estimates of the value of concessions range from 660M (AMR) to 1B. They're probably realistically somewhere around 750M. What exactly was traded for the 26M, I doubt we'll ever know.

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You and every one else. AA got a lot more than the $1.8 billion they were looking for.
They exaggerated their losses and underpriced our concessions, another Win-Win deal between our unions and the company.

 

[FWAAA]

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On 7/24/2003 5:15:06 AM Bob Owens wrote:

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On 7/23/2003 8:30:23 AM AA80Driver wrote:


The target of 660 million was met and exceeded by the APA.  Estimates of the value of concessions range from 660M (AMR) to 1B.  They're probably realistically somewhere around 750M.  What exactly was traded for the 26M, I doubt we'll ever know.

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You and every one else. AA got a lot more than the $1.8 billion they were looking for.
They exaggerated their losses and underpriced our concessions, another Win-Win deal between our unions and the company.

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If you're going to persist in accusing AMR of "exaggerating their losses," you really should notify the SEC - after all, they offer rewards for tipsters who rat out companies who play fast and loose with the rules - maybe then you could get that new car.

 

[AOA]

The debt forgiveness may explain why the APA leadership did not back APFA and TWU in their call for re-votes, after the revelations about Carty's creation of trusts that would exempt senior management's retirement funds from any bankruptcy claims. I am an APA member who is totally disgusted with our weak leadership and the spinelessness of most of the members. If not for APFA and TWU, we would still have Carty for CEO and be locked into a SIX year cut. Petition for ALPA, you guys...

 

[dogdriver]

If you're going to persist in accusing AMR of "exaggerating their losses," you really should notify the SEC - after all, they offer rewards for tipsters who rat out companies who play fast and loose with the rules - maybe then you could get that new car.

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FWAAA,
I believe that what the previous poster was referring to was the fact that not all of the money lost by AMR was "real money". In last years annual report I remember reading that AMR "lost" $900+ million because they wrote down the value of the F-100 and the Saab 340. Recently they also wrote off about $1 billion worth of "goodwill". These write-offs are all very legal, so there is no reason to tell the SEC (they already know). So when you hear that AA "lost" $5.8 billion over the last 2 years, a large portion of that is not actual cash. But, when it comes to scaring people into giving concessions, the bigger the number, the better.

 

[will fix for food]

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On 7/25/2003 11:28:15 AM dogdriver wrote:

FWAAA,
I believe that what the previous poster was referring to was the fact that not all of the money lost by AMR was "real money". In last years annual report I remember reading that AMR "lost" $900+ million because they wrote down the value of the F-100 and the Saab 340. Recently they also wrote off about $1 billion worth of "goodwill"............

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I've seen this referenced a few times. Can someone explain what this "Goodwill" write off is for those of us who don/t know? (i.e. me)