AA employees got shares for what reason?

[FWAAA]

FWAAA,  is it also true that it was not their best, as well as last offer?  Didn't the pilots also get their 401K % raised to 16 or 17% contribution made by company with "NO" input from the pilots, from the 13-14% in original agreement?   There were other improvements made in the 2nd offer from the company to the pilots, but I do not remember what they were all including.  However, I do remember myself posting that the mechanics should reject and get back to the table just like the pilots did and get improvements, but the TWU just laid down and didn't even put up a fight, didn't even try.  They saw that the company was bluffing about their threats, and they still pushed hard to sell it to the membership, then they later sold the membership again and rid of the P.S. for the raise where they could have had both...

No, the 401k offer in the original term sheet offer from AA was 14% to replace the existing 11% contribution plus the defined benefit pension.   The rejected LBFO also contained a 14% contribution.    The pilots eventually ratified a new contract containing a 14% contribution.   
 
The 16% contribution was part of Parker's new MOU that he offered the US and AA pilots contingent on the merger;  so the merger was the reason for the 16% contribution, not the pilots' rejection of the LBFO.   
 
The AA pilots did get some very small, minor improvements in their ratified agreement last December, but the 401k was not one of them.   It was 14% from the beginning, and that's what the pilots ratified late last year.  
 
I don't recall all the improvements in the ratified agreement, but one of them was to place the A319s in the same payband as the other small narrowbodies.    

 

[IORFA]

People there is no need to become nasty.....I asked a question.....I did not insult nor did I throw insults. As for the lack of knowledge ...... The only stupid question is the one not asked....knowledge comes from asking questions. But thank you for the answers.

Questions not grounded with any common sense get pounced on around here. If you said your question out loud, I would hope you could have answered it yourself. Yet you asked a dumb question and then was surprised it didn't go over well. That in itself is shocking to me.

 

[Bob Owens]

No, the 401k offer in the original term sheet offer from AA was 14% to replace the existing 11% contribution plus the defined benefit pension.   The rejected LBFO also contained a 14% contribution.    The pilots eventually ratified a new contract containing a 14% contribution.   
 
The 16% contribution was part of Parker's new MOU that he offered the US and AA pilots contingent on the merger;  so the merger was the reason for the 16% contribution, not the pilots' rejection of the LBFO.   
 
The AA pilots did get some very small, minor improvements in their ratified agreement last December, but the 401k was not one of them.   It was 14% from the beginning, and that's what the pilots ratified late last year.  
 
I don't recall all the improvements in the ratified agreement, but one of them was to place the A319s in the same payband as the other small narrowbodies.

Did their slightly improved contract leave them at the very bottom of the industry? You claim the improvements were minor, but to the pilots who will not be flying at RJ rates they were pretty big. Imagine how well they would have done if they weren't the only group to say NO? If the had the mechanics and FA right there next to them telling the Judge that if their deals are abrogated and the company imposed new terms they will follow what the RLA says in such circumstances and resort to self help? Alas that didn't happen but you are trying to spin it that by saying no the pilots didn't get much, but the fact is you even admit that by saying NO they got more and the lost nothing more, which is what your side was saying would happen if we rejected the deals.

 

[Mach85ER]

AANOTOK

No offense intended. I didn't address the cuts everybody faced and the personal devastation in all work groups including HDQ. The "Me Too" clauses were a fact of life and most everybody got further improvements after our continued negotiations even if they weren't substantial. We aren't anything special in the process, just had more leverage. If they could replace and subcontract us out like many groups at AA they would have.

FWAA,

We all thought it was 13.5% of the new AA or the the AA portion of LCC and AA.
We found out it is 13.5% of the UCC total equity claim agreed to in court. That number is covered by shares equaling that value during the next 105 days. APA's value is around $1 Billion. If the stock doubles before then, we fewer shares, as long as our number is covered. There is no upside over that number. We eat the downside, but I think that number is below $15 or so. Now if the share price bumbles along at it's current value, and the share price doubles shortly after 105 days, and a pilot didn't sell, then he scores the upside.

As for the equity during negotiations, my memory was incorrect, it didn't come after a vote, but it did come after APA refused to settle like the other groups after the mediation with that other Judge appointed by Judge Lane. It was a deal sweetner after Horton started to figure out his master plan orchestrated by Jeff Brundage was falling apart. Horton lost his company he just started running.

 

[AANOTOK]

AANOTOK

No offense intended. I didn't address the cuts everybody faced and the personal devastation in all work groups including HDQ. The "Me Too" clauses were a fact of life and most everybody got further improvements after our continued negotiations even if they weren't substantial. We aren't anything special in the process, just had more leverage. If they could replace and subcontract us out like many groups at AA they would have.

 

Fair enough Mach, thanks!

 

[bob@las-AA]

 
AA did not get "gobbled up." AA mgmt decided to use the dirty trick of going to BK to get out of the pensions, get the ability to outsource more, and offload some bad debt. AA went in to BK with so much cash they did not need DIP financing like all other previous airline mergers. US needed this merger much more than AA did and Parker has been looking for a suitor for some time now. The deal only went forward because of the APA, APFA, and TWU backing it, without the AA unions and the possibility of labor unrest I doubt this merger would have made it.
 
Bottom line is there should be no puffing out of chests by any labor group. US, HP, TW, and AA union members all got shafted from BK and mergers. Now is not the time to be arguing about who should get a "taste" or which company is the real driver of this merger. We - labor - are along for the ride and now is the time for all organized labor groups to start coming together. US has yet to settle with the IAM and no JCBA will happen for some time until this happens. 

False!! You will still get your pension, just the remainder of your time at AA will not got towards your pension, unless they do like Hostess.

 

[will fix for food]

agreed overspeed we all are going to have to stick together or they will rape us all

You can bet on it. It's already started. They came for the Eagle pilots for out of contract concessions. They were rejected. Then they went to PSA and got what they wanted. Now they are back at Eagle telling them that they have to match PSA or they will shut Eagle down.

In the long run I believe the plan is to have three wholly owned regionals of roughly the same size to whipsaw against each other. When they get what they want there they will come to mainline and play mainline against the wholly owned carriers.

It's the play book they have used for the last 20 years. I doubt they will change it much now.

 

[Overspeed]

 
False!! You will still get your pension, just the remainder of your time at AA will not got towards your pension, unless they do like Hostess.
 

 
 AA wanted to get out of further funding of the pension. We get accruals up to the time the defined plan was frozen.

 

[700UW]

They still have to maintain funding, and its underfunded.

 

[Bloodhound]

Pilots turned down the "Last Best Final Offer" from the company. Turns out it wasn't the Last offer and the equity was added to the second offer through negotiations with the UCC. Horton was against it, probably because he knew it diluted his power and gave the pilots a say about his future.

The other employee groups had "me too" clauses and tagged along.

Correct me if I'm wrong about the above. Everything about the last couple years is fading into a slurry in my brain.

LCC and AWA didn't have a seat at the poker table. The equity for the pilots was 13.5% of the "new AA" or 13.5% of the 72% share of the new AA group with LCC.

The pilots with the largest amount of shares probably got 2300-2400 in the first bunch, around 48% of the final value. The average per pilot is supposed to be around $100K total pretax. Most is for the retirement future value loss among other calculated losses addressed in the settlement. It would have been zero if we voted YES the first time.

Distribution format is like other employees

From a maintenance standpoint only, I can say that we came nowhere close to "tagging along". A 4.8% equity stake  vs 13.5% is far from it. But, to correct you if you're wrong as you requested, I received 450 pre-tax shares with 22 years of service in the 1st round...sure as Hell isn't 2300. From a salary standpoint, pilots make nowhere near 5x what a mechanic does; so yeah, you've been misinformed somewhere along the way. Believe me, my brain is as slurried as yours Ha Ha!! 
 
And, TWU's ATD Director Jim Little gave away Profit Sharing, AND the "Me Too" clause for ALL TWU employees, in lieu of a 4.3% base pay raise upon the merger completion which became effective 12/9/13.  So, we're definitely not tagging along. Although, if AA's future net earnings even come close to a reflection of the earnings in the nearly 23 years since I've been here, I'll take a 4.3% raise today and like it!!!

 

[bob@las-AA]

They still have to maintain funding, and its underfunded.

 
Yes they do,....now the question on my mind is, what pension obligations do US air have? Now that we are all but one, add up all that pension obligation and yes-sir-ree-bob, that’s a big nut to pay every month. Remember Hostess!! AA entered BK before I was vested, now all I have left is to live poor because I put just about every penny in my 401K. 

 

[700UW]

The only people that have a defined benefit plan are the three IAM represented groups, Mechanic and Related, Maintenance Trainers and Fleet Service.

 

[1AA]

The only people that have a defined benefit plan are the three IAM represented groups, Mechanic and Related, Maintenance Trainers and Fleet Service.

WRONG. We still have ours at AA. Frozen but we still have our pension.

 

[700UW]

 
Yes they do,....now the question on my mind is, what pension obligations do US air have? Now that we are all but one, add up all that pension obligation and yes-sir-ree-bob, that’s a big nut to pay every month. Remember Hostess!! AA entered BK before I was vested, now all I have left is to live poor because I put just about every penny in my 401K. 

 
 

The only people that have a defined benefit plan are the three IAM represented groups, Mechanic and Related, Maintenance Trainers and Fleet Service.

 
 

WRONG. We still have ours at AA. Frozen but we still have our pension.

Learn to read.  In your zealousness to try and prove me wrong, you made yourself look like a fool.
 
You dont have a true pension anymore, your not receiving any accrual since its freeze, AA only has to maintain minimal funding to pay the liabilities with no future accrual, you have no pension anymore.  A frozen pension means you are not getting any credit for your years of service from the freeze forward.
 
At US all groups have a terminated pension, US makes NO contributions towards it.

 

[1AA]

 
 
 
 
Learn to read.  In your zealousness to try and prove me wrong, you made yourself look like a fool.
 
You dont have a true pension anymore, your not receiving any accrual since its freeze, AA only has to maintain minimal funding to pay the liabilities with no future accrual, you have no pension anymore.  A frozen pension means you are not getting any credit for your years of service from the freeze forward.
 
At US all groups have a terminated pension, US makes NO contributions towards it.

YES I still have my pension, frozen or not it is there. And YES it is still being contributed by the company up to the point of the day it was frozen. Call me a fool if you wish but I still have my pension with AA, Do you have yours with USAir? Name calling will get you no credibility or respect when you try to post information or view points. But I guess you knew that by now.