AA ..............CA$H ON HAND ?

[Hopeful]

As usual you are incapable of answering a simple question you don't like the answer to.

I agree with Bob! You are comparing a pension that was turned over to the PBGC to one that is still in place, but underfunded. A pay cut is a reduction in pension, no matter how you slice it.
Would you be happy if we keep getting pay cuts to the point where it is less than what the PBGC would guarantee?

 

[Bob Owens]

As usual you are incapable of answering a simple question you don't like the answer to.

Simple enough for ya?

Pot calling the Kettle black? You asked for a simple response, I gave it. Not the one you liked but you got an answer. However your reply did not address my question, only dissatifaction with my reply.

The fact is you said our pension was intact, I corrected you and you countered with a rhetorical question, but the fact is your initial statement was inaccurate and you simply do not want to admit it.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

FM.."nosed out" FWAAA, by coming closest to AA's $5.9B cash on hand.

FM........$6B
FWAAA.....$5.6B


(Somehow I KNEW it would be between one of those two)(Money, always goes to MONEY)

Maybe I would have been a bit closer, if it were not for those "gosh darn".........PUP BUCKS :down:

NH/BB's

 

[donttouchthebeauty]

Man, you really seem to have a hard on for AA. Did someone from AA burn your house down or something? Or is it because our pensions are still intact? Maybe you will get your wish and it will get shreded like everyone elses.

Not in your wettest dream 777... You must be insane to think i want to fly around on hundreds of super80s for the rest of my life... Your pension is a bargaining tool now... Most other airlines took paycuts and got their pensions ripped as well... now the company is not near as likely to turn to the employees for more cuts b/c they can go no lower than the present... However AA had the employees take the cuts but kept the pensions as a bargaining tool... As for the debt ... all companies have debt (or most) however AA problem is they are not dominant enough compared to 4 companies that have no pensions and lower costs due to BK...(sadly enough) ... and a lineup of LCCs... hopefully you never have to endure that.

 

[Bob Owens]

Not in your wettest dream 777... You must be insane to think i want to fly around on hundreds of super80s for the rest of my life... Your pension is a bargaining tool now... Most other airlines took paycuts and got their pensions ripped as well... now the company is not near as likely to turn to the employees for more cuts b/c they can go no lower than the present... However AA had the employees take the cuts but kept the pensions as a bargaining tool... As for the debt ... all companies have debt (or most) however AA problem is they are not dominant enough compared to 4 companies that have no pensions and lower costs due to BK...(sadly enough) ... and a lineup of LCCs... hopefully you never have to endure that.

Its a bargaining tool that was made by the employees at that. AA and its lapdog union had the members lobby to have the government allow AA to defer, in other words fall behind even more, on payments to the pension. That extra debt will make the next crisis-and the reason why AA cant give snapbacks in the next round of talks.

So AA got the best of both worlds. They were able to reduce payments to the pension,(less than they would have if they had adopted 401k plans like the other carriers replaced their pensions with) they cut pay which in turn cut the pension and they will use the deferred payments to the pension as leverage during the next round of negotiations in order to keep pay low. Then you have fools from the union who run around claiming that our pension is intact!

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

(As it pertains to AA and "It's" union,)...AA is very smart historically !

THAT is why, ALL major decisions are made....SOUTH of the Mason/Dixon line, ...and WEST of the Mississippi.

(Just in case, anybody forgot, that the folks EAST, and NORTH of the (above) boundarys, WON the Civil War !)

( :blink: :blink: And some of you may have thought that AA relocated from NY, to DFW/TUL, for the Wx)

NH/BB's

 

[eolesen]

The Company reduced total debt, which includes the principal amount of airport facility tax-exempt bonds and the present value of aircraft operating lease obligations, to $18.4 billion at the end of the fourth quarter of 2006, compared to $20.1 billion a year earlier. In addition to $1.2 billion in scheduled principal payments that AMR made in 2006, the Company purchased $190 million of its outstanding debt and lease obligations during the year. AMR reduced net debt, which is defined as total debt less unrestricted cash and short-term investments, from $16.3 billion at the end of 2005 to $13.6 billion at the end of 2006.

Redboner, please take note of the figures above. Don't see anything near $30B as you've prognosticated...

 

[IORFA]

Don't touch.....As you continue to spew about our pensions and how you say AA is only contributing the minimum, here are the facts. From the conference call, AA contributed 323 million, 100 million more than required, and overall funding rates for all plans are approx. 85%. Not too bad. Wish it were better, but far better than yours and most other airlines and very affordable for the co. At this point 85% funded is not in danger of being abandoned to the Federal government. i.e. the PBGC. Close to 2 Billion in debt paid down and 323 million for the pensions. There just might be light around the corner of this dark tunnel. Atleast we, AA, can still barely say that we have a career here instead of just a job. I only hope that we can keep it up. I think people around here would try a lot harder if it not for the PUP!! That is going to continue to be a gigantic thorn in labor's side. Other than the TWU, major change is NOT going to happen because of the PUP!!!

 

[Bob Owens]

Don't touch.....As you continue to spew about our pensions and how you say AA is only contributing the minimum, here are the facts. From the conference call, AA contributed 323 million, 100 million more than required, and overall funding rates for all plans are approx. 85%. Not too bad. Wish it were better, but far better than yours and most other airlines and very affordable for the co. At this point 85% funded is not in danger of being abandoned to the Federal government. i.e. the PBGC. Close to 2 Billion in debt paid down and 323 million for the pensions. There just might be light around the corner of this dark tunnel. Atleast we, AA, can still barely say that we have a career here instead of just a job. I only hope that we can keep it up. I think people around here would try a lot harder if it not for the PUP!! That is going to continue to be a gigantic thorn in labor's side. Other than the TWU, major change is NOT going to happen because of the PUP!!!

85% funded according to whom? We all saw the differences in figures when some of the other airlines turned over their pensions to the PBGC as far as how underfunded they were. So AA may claim that its 100% funded but if it was turned over to the PBGC at that point the PBGC may say its way underfunded. Besides even if its 15% underfunded its still too much, I expect my pension to be fully funded at all times, even if they have to borrow the money to do it.

What makes your career different from other airline workers jobs?


If the execs turn down the pup how does that help you? If they turn down the PUP and fully fund the pension that might be something. If they turn down the PUP and restore something substantail that they took away that might be something. But if they turn down the PUP does that mean that you will run off to work tomorrow actually believing that they are sharing in the sacrifice? The fact is there is no sharing, you give and they take.The question is only in how much and how brazenly they take.

 

[eolesen]

Bob, you make it sound like current AA retirees aren't getting their pensions, which couldn't be further from the truth...

If 85% funded is what the company is stating, AA has been closing the gap by about 5% per year between cash contributions and interest growth on the underlying securities. By PBGC standards, it's overfunded, and if the plans were turned over, it's more likely than not that AA retirees would be receiving what they were promised, and not just the minimum guarantee (something DAL, UAL, U, and NWAC retirees will not be able to claim).

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

Well "freind" is your pension now the property of the PBGC worth a fraction of what it once was? A simple answer will do.

A simple answer
What does the PBGC have to do with our pension

A paycut is a cut to our pension because it is based on our base pay

Is that simpl enough Simon

 

[IORFA]

BOB,

I agree 85% is not enough, although it is better than the 80% it was last year. Of course I am going on what AA says from the conference call. I expect APFA and all the other unions to second guess AA and check there numbers. I am happy the federal govt isn't in control of it also. The fact that F/A's don't have to start at McDonald's wages and still have a pension, that is why this is still barely a career and not just a job. I also understand that our starting wage is not all that great, but still better than most. Our pensions are not in any immediate danger either. I fully understand that might not be the same 6 months from now, but compared to all the other "traditional" pensions out there in the airline industry. I'll take ours. Regarding the PUP, NO I won't be skipping off to work if they turned it down. Even if they also returned all the money from last year. They still wouldn't get it!! The trust is long gone and it would take something HUGE just to get me back to the starting line. I do nothing that isn't required, just like most. I am not bragging, just stating fact. Untill management stops the rehteric and starts throwing around honesty and truth, then I am not listening. Integrity talks, B.S. walks.

Bob
At this point, you need to work with the cards you are dealt. No use getting an ulcer over the past. Put that effort to changing the future. We all want this place to change for the better. I am at the point that I think you never were happy here. You must be able to listen to the conference call and see that there are some good things in there. Back to the pensions, 100% funding would be great. 85% is better than last years 80%, atleast it is higher. Also, AA contributed 100 million more than the required minimum. That is also a plus. Take that and work with it. We all want more money, bitching about it on here isn't going to change anything. Flame away.

 

[FWAAA]

I said all along that AA wasnt in as bad a shape as they let on.

I was right.

I said that AAs $20 billion in debt was not a problem, and used the analogy of homeowner mortgage debt to illustrate that the debt load AA had was not much worse than what most homeowners start off with. Now FM is trying to spin the same analogy.

So, Mr Owens, the fact that AMR's financial health is better now than in April, 2003 somehow proves that AMR's financial distress was overstated then?

Do you honestly believe that claptrap? Seriously?

I had a friend who was near death a few years ago. Lotsa work by expensive doctors and expensive drugs during that time has somehow resulted in a nearly complete recovery. So I guess that's proof that a few years ago my friend wasn't in as bad a shape as I was led to believe, right?

Letsee: AMR's revenues in those 3.5 years have amounted to more than $60 billion. In those 3.5 years, AMR has sold new stock for several hundred million dollars. During that period, AMR has also borrowed over a billion dollars in new debt. Sadly, AMR chopped its employee pay by $1.8 billion per year, for a total of more than $6.3 billion since the concessions were signed.

AA's mainline yield has jumped substantially in that 3.5 years (as have the load factors). Its annual revenues are up about 30% from those dark days.

Yet despite all that, AMR's financial recovery (which I'm thinking has everything to do with the above) is instead proof to you that everyone lied to you about how bad the finances were in early 2003. W O W.

Mr Owens, some of your posts reflect highly intelligent, highly educated ideas. And then some of them reflect a complete detachment from reality. IMO, the post above is representative of the latter.

The notion that AA's evil execs somehow oversold/overstated/lied about the financial distress in late 2002 and early 2003 and that the recent recovery helps prove that is completely laughable.

 

[FWAAA]

FM.."nosed out" FWAAA, by coming closest to AA's $5.9B cash on hand.

FM........$6B
FWAAA.....$5.6B
(Somehow I KNEW it would be between one of those two)(Money, always goes to MONEY)

Maybe I would have been a bit closer, if it were not for those "gosh darn".........PUP BUCKS :down:

NH/BB's

What? I was way off, but FM was even further afield; I said $5.9 billion of unrestricted cash (not $5.6) and AA reported $4.715 billion of unrestricted cash. FM went with a guess of $6 billion, even farther away than my guess. We were both over.

AA reported $4.715 billion of unrestricted cash plus another $468 million of restricted cash, for a total of only $5.2 billion. We were all way off, but I was closest.

 

[FWAAA]

85% funded according to whom? We all saw the differences in figures when some of the other airlines turned over their pensions to the PBGC as far as how underfunded they were. So AA may claim that its 100% funded but if it was turned over to the PBGC at that point the PBGC may say its way underfunded. Besides even if its 15% underfunded its still too much, I expect my pension to be fully funded at all times, even if they have to borrow the money to do it.

All we have are AA's assertions that its pensions are now 85% funded, up substantially from their low point. Yes, it's possible that AA is lying about that funding level. Do you have any evidence that the pensions are not 85% funded? Other than over-statements of value by other companies that refused to fund their pensions?

AA has been given several years to rectify the pension underfunding. Of course you'd like to see that happen even faster. Perhaps the employees would like to negotiate a faster funding to 100%. Wonder what AA would demand in return?

Jesus - AA contributed an extra $100 million last year over and above the minimum funding required. And yet your only response is "that's not fast enough for me and it's possible that it's not even 85% funded anyway."

Is it any wonder why AA couldn't care less what you want?