AA and Anti Missile System

[777 fixer]

And where have you come up with this "140lbs high explosive continuous rod warhead" thing? :huh:

Have you been paying attention? Why don’t you look it up.

Since you are the one who mentioned the Navy I thought I would point out to you how unlikely that was. First by mentioning that the SAM’s typically used on Navy ships are of the semi-active kind. In other words they have to be guided to the target. Turn off the guidance and the missile goes dumb. Then there’s the issue of the war head. A 140lbs of explosive with steel spikes is going to leave its mark. Yet no such marks were found anywhere on the airframe.

 

[MCI transplant]

Have you been paying attention? Why don’t you look it up.

Since you are the one who mentioned the Navy I thought I would point out to you how unlikely that was. First by mentioning that the SAM’s typically used on Navy ships are of the semi-active kind. In other words they have to be guided to the target. Turn off the guidance and the missile goes dumb. Then there’s the issue of the war head. A 140lbs of explosive with steel spikes is going to leave its mark. Yet no such marks were found anywhere on the airframe.

<_< -----Fixer, First off, I've said I had my doubts as to the origin of the missiles! Our Navy is only one of the possibilities! In fact, I lean toward the possibility that it really was the first shoot of the "War on Terror" we are fighting today! Not 9/11! ----- Flt.800 was flying in El Al's slot that night. In other words, the 747 that should have been in that place, in that point in time, should have been EL AL, not TWA! TWA Flt.800, left the gate late that night. A second 747 was delayed also! EL AL! Flt.800 took it's slot!-----It just happened to be in the wrong spot, at the wrong time! Second, How do you know what the Navy had in the way of "Surface to Air Missiles" back then? Or even if they had warheads on them at all! From what I've been told a missile penetrated the center fuel tank causing it to explode. The missile itself was the ignition source of the fuel vapors! Not necessarily a war head! And that was evident by the way the "Keel beam", deformed. The NTSB insists it was due to an electric spark in the center fuel tank. But, the only wiring in that tank goes to the fuel quantity probes. And the currant that runs through them is measure in millivolt's! Not enough to create a spark! So the NTSB came up with a theory that maybe some of the fuel prob wiring were in a wire bundle with high power cables that somehow bleed over and caused a power surge! Problem with that theory is that Boeing purposely doesn't route those fuel probe wires that way for that vary reason! Remember the fuel we're talking about is "KEROSENE"! Did you know they took an old 747 fuselage out to the desert and tryed duplicate the explosion! Guess what! They couldn't!

 

[Mach85ER]

MCI,

Any terrorist relying on ATC or the airlines to keep a slot in order to shoot probably isn't smart enough to pull off a missile shot in the first place. We trade takeoff positions at the last second all the time, probably the majority of the time.
Any missile, even without a warhead, would leave a million shrapnel holes all over the 747 after blowing into it at Mach 3+. I don't think you could keep it a secret after the many that got involved with the salvage crew

I look at the slot theory like the 9/11 conspiracies. Any massive evil plan that relies on the airlines to actually show up in one place in a coordinated fashion fails to pass the smell test.

Then again. there was the National Guard Helo pilot that swears he saw a missile. Good witness too, saw a few shot at him in Viet Nam

 

[MCI transplant]

<_< ------Mach85er, You bring up some good points, but in my mind there are too many unanswered questions. Why did the military get involved in this at all? Why did the Navy do all the salvaging, and not civilian contractors? Why did the FBI question all the witness, and not the NTSB, when it was clearly their responsibility? Why did the CIA get involved? ------And when an Aircraft that you have personally worked on goes down, like that,----- it gets down right personal!

 

[Mach85ER]

<_< ------Mach85er, You bring up some good points, but in my mind there are too many unanswered questions. Why did the military get involved in this at all? Why did the Navy do all the salvaging, and not civilian contractors? Why did the FBI question all the witness, and not the NTSB, when it was clearly their responsibility? Why did the CIA get involved? ------And when an Aircraft that you have personally worked on goes down, like that,----- it gets down right personal!

"Why did the military get involved in this at all?"

1.Why did the same Navy ship that salvaged Flt800 waste resources salvaging JFK Jr's plane after he killed his wife and her sister? I'll tell you why, it's because it happened off New York and every politician and every media company crammed the story down our throats over and over 24 hours a day. When 90% of the reporters in this country can hop in a minivan within an hour and grab some new stock footage of the day, whatever story it is is going to be over represented. The reaction too.

2.Why did the FBI question all the witness, and not the NTSB, when it was clearly their responsibility?
See #1 and political weight. The NTSB has none. Kallstrom never lets his Flt800 work go unnoticed.

3.Why did the CIA get involved?
See #1 & 2

3.And when an Aircraft that you have personally worked on goes down, like that,----- it gets down right personal!

Agreed.

 

[777 fixer]

<_< ------Mach85er, You bring up some good points, but in my mind there are too many unanswered questions. Why did the military get involved in this at all? Why did the Navy do all the salvaging, and not civilian contractors? Why did the FBI question all the witness, and not the NTSB, when it was clearly their responsibility? Why did the CIA get involved? ------And when an Aircraft that you have personally worked on goes down, like that,----- it gets down right personal!

Like so many people who believe in these conspiracy theories you ask questions but don't even bother to look for answers. Can you name any civilian salvage operation that has the kind of resources the United States Navy has at its disposal? How many civilian contractors have fully equipped salvage ships with state of the art equipment down the coast in Norfolk? How many civilian contractors have USAF AMC aircraft at their disposal at a moments notice?

This reminds me when you asked why all 747’s weren’t grounded after TWA 800. Eric came up with a very good reason why that did not happen. Just as Mach85 did when you talked about TWA 800 being in El Al’s slot. And by the way is that actually true or is it something you heard?


http://www.msc.navy.mil/Grapple/GrappleWeb...es/page0004.htm

 

[MCI transplant]

Like so many people who believe in these conspiracy theories you ask questions but don't even bother to look for answers. Can you name any civilian salvage operation that has the kind of resources the United States Navy has at its disposal? How many civilian contractors have fully equipped salvage ships with state of the art equipment down the coast in Norfolk? How many civilian contractors have USAF AMC aircraft at their disposal at a moments notice?

This reminds me when you asked why all 747’s weren’t grounded after TWA 800. Eric came up with a very good reason why that did not happen. Just as Mach85 did when you talked about TWA 800 being in El Al’s slot. And by the way is that actually true or is it something you heard?


http://www.msc.navy.mil/Grapple/GrappleWeb...es/page0004.htm

<_< ------ Fixer, You can believe what you want! But the fact of the matter is that no one has come up with an "credible" answer to this question. What was the source of ignition that made he center fuel explode? And if for a minute you think it could have been stray voltage from a cracked wire in a wire bundle, your as gelable as they come! The fact of the matter is that the government could not duplicate the explosion! And believe me, they tried! I work with, and have talked to, people who were involved with the investigation. They tell a different story than the NTSB! We had Union people on those salvage boats, and at the hanger where they put together what was left of the aircraft. They made a report on their conclusions as to what happened! And they're the one's who know the aircraft best, because they're the one's who worked on it ,day in, and day out! Look up their official report! If you can find it! Seems the government has tried to bury it also! It's the I.A.M.'s Official report on Flt.800.------- Now I know what your going to say! "Union Report"? But I know the individuals involved, and believe me, their credible! In fact, one of them is an ex-Navy Chief!

 

[777 fixer]

<_< ------ Fixer, You can believe what you want! But the fact of the matter is that no one has come up with an "credible" answer to this question. What was the source of ignition that made he center fuel explode? And if for a minute you think it could have been stray voltage from a cracked wire in a wire bundle, your as gelable as they come! The fact of the matter is that the government could not duplicate the explosion! And believe me, they tried! I work with, and have talked to, people who were involved with the investigation. They tell a different story than the NTSB! We had Union people on those salvage boats, and at the hanger where they put together what was left of the aircraft. They made a report on their conclusions as to what happened! And they're the one's who know the aircraft best, because they're the one's who worked on it ,day in, and day out! Look up their official report! If you can find it! Seems the government has tried to bury it also! It's the I.A.M.'s Official report on Flt.800.------- Now I know what your going to say! "Union Report"? But I know the individuals involved, and believe me, their credible! In fact, one of them is an ex-Navy Chief!

Then why don't you post that report.

So far you have yet to show any evidence to support the missile theory. If you have evidence to support the misslie theory you should show it. Otherwise your wasting everyones time.

 

[MCI transplant]

Then why don't you post that report.

So far you have yet to show any evidence to support the missile theory. If you have evidence to support the misslie theory you should show it. Otherwise your wasting everyones time.

<_< ------- What? You too lazy to look it up for yourself?--- :huh: It's really not up to me to prove anything! I've told you my opinon! If you let them lead you arround by the nose without so much as a questioning the facts! Well that's your problem!

 

[777 fixer]

<_< ------- What? You too lazy to look it up for yourself?--- :huh: It's really not up to me to prove anything! I've told you my opinon! If you let them lead you arround by the nose without so much as a questioning the facts! Well that's your problem!

It's not up to you to prove anything? That's funny your the one who's making claims he can't back up. For all I know no such report exists and it's a figment of your imagination.

Here's the thing, you’re really not interested in facts. You’re only interested in things that will somehow prove you right. So far you have come up snake eyes.

 

[MCI transplant]

It's not up to you to prove anything? That's funny your the one who's making claims he can't back up. For all I know no such report exists and it's a figment of your imagination.


<_< ----- fixer, You want everything handed to you on a platter! You don't want to go through the trouble of looking into something for yourself! You'd Rather go with the flow! The path of least resistance is your way of life! That report does exist! "IF" you get up off your arss, you just might find it! Read it, you just might learn something!------ But you won't!!!! :down:

 

[777 fixer]

[

You know I would have thought you of all people would want the whole world to read that report. At the very least it might give you something to back up your views.

 

[MCI transplant]

[

You know I would have thought you of all people would want the whole world to read that report. At the very least it might give you something to back up your views.

<_< ------- Go for it fixer! I'll give you a little incentive! The report doesn't use the word "missile"!

 

[MCI transplant]

<_< -----O.K.fixer, here it is, if your really interested! Sorry I can't get you a link! But I'll get you to it anyway!----- Go to "Associated Retired Aviation Professionals" web sight. Look around! Click on "Reports"! Flt.800 Data Base, You'll find the IAM's report there, among others on the subject!!!

 

[MCI transplant]

<_< ------- Ken! Question?------IF ever AA should have an Aircraft go down, like TWA flt.800, (God forbid!) Do you feel the TWU could, or would, put together a team of Inspectors to represent the best interests of AA, and it's membership, as was the case with the IAM team? :huh: