A Horrible EIA Oil Inventory Report

[PITbull]

(And also for PitBull, who told me that gas is a necessity)

Who determines what a necessity is? How do you know that I don't need 4 gallons of Coca-cola per day?

How long has the human race needed oil as a 'necessity'? Was it a necessity to the Romans? Please do tell.

Yea ok. genius, bring on the Chariots... and don't forget my robes, crown and sword, now, that is necessary.

 

[700UW]

I would rather see you in Armor!

 

[PITbull]

Lots of people do it, all over the world, and even in the the days of putting ANYthing in your tank for $0.99 (or even $1.99) / gal are probably over. The point of alternative sources is not that they are cheap, but that they will be cheaper than gas in the decades ahead as the easy sources of oil begin to run dry and we have to turn towards more expensive sources.
Why should they? They have a stellar business model. They have what others are willing to pay a lot of money for. Capitalism at its finest. You want to develop other sources of energy, get a bunch of investors together and start your very own alternative energy company. But then when you've sunk a bunch of your own money and sweat into the company in a very risky venture to develop another source and start actually making a profit, get ready for the PITbulls will be knocking at the doors of Congress saying the price on what you sell should be "regulated."
I absolutely blame the American public for making poor lifestyle, policy and planning decisions over the decades that has led to the outrageous oil consumption in the U.S. (which in turn leads to disastrous foreign policy in the Middle East, among other problems). We went through the EXACT SAME THING in the 1970s, and learned absolutely nothing.
OK, see, as I explained above, the reason "other sources of energy [haven't been] achieved" is because of low oil prices. If you force gas prices to remain artificially low through "regulation," that will delay the development of alternative energy sources even longer. As PineyBob explained, having high oil prices will hasten the day when we actually have those alternative sources available.
Our entire petroleum-dependent economic structure is certainly headed for change. If we don't start making changes to our lifestyle and living closer to where we work, or at least making where we live and work more amenable to public transit, yes there will indeed be tough times ahead. But we're a clever people, and it can be done. On the other hand, policies like what you are suggesting -- keeping gas prices lower than what the market dictates -- would indeed lead to the collapse of our entire economic structure. We need to start planning NOW for $5 or $10/gal gas or whatever alternative source you are thinking of.
If you're using four gallons of gasoline per day, you really have some changes to make in how you live.

Ok. I can agree with some of what you are saying, as you make a rational argument.

BUT, choosing employment where you live is really and truly totally myopic. You really are looking at folks that would have to live in a city or next to their plant.. And that's just not going to happen. Finding livable employment is hard enough, and manuafacturing jobs is dwendling faster than any other form of employment. So, its slim pickens, other than working at your closest fast food chain for min. wage which is on just about every corner where anyone would live. I'm sure we are not talking Lee R. Raymond, (Exxon) David O'Reilly,(Chevron CEO) Senior Corporate Exec types, lawyers, physicians, surgeions, Hollywood folks, sport players, Oprah, Eisners, Buffets, Gates, Perelman, Johnson, Bush, Cheney, Congressmen, Senators, Hilton, Ikahn, Parker, Glass, Crellin and those types of wealthy in the world, right?

When you speak of 4 gallons of gas a day, you are talking about approx 80 miles round trip from where you live to work and back. Most folks live closer than 80 miles round trip, but "standing" in traffic at 7:30 am and 5:00 pm eats about 2 gallons.

Just about a year ago, gas was approx $2.10. I don't think its unrealistic to go back down to those levels. Again, you must agree, THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF FUEL. JUST AN ABUNDANCE OF GREED.

In our "system", we surely can't control that! No siree! It's just plain OUR friggin fault. Heck what were we think'in, cause "greed is good" and doesn't need to be checked...just our attitude towards greed and move closer to where we work...

So, what have you been using for fuel, donkeys, and water?

I would rather see you in Armor!

Gee 700, as that all you can imagine? Yea, I think I'll buy some metal tomorrow

 

[700UW]

I can imagine many other things. Leather or Lace? LOL!

Remember CCY, lol.

 

[PITbull]

First, profit margins in the oil companies aren't all that high. The raw dollar amount is, because they sell so much product and so have high revenues. But proportionately, the profit margin is only in the single digits.

LOL...yea, single digits in the billions per quarter...bigger than the entire GNP of some nations is just simply "small cheese". B)

 

[Bear96]

You really are looking at folks that would have to live in a city or next to their plant.. And that's just not going to happen.

Many can use public transit. (And yes, that means more of an investment in transit to make it more user friendly to more people, and smarter development to put people closer to transit and/or closer to where they work, and less of an investment on 12-lane highways to exurbia.) Besides, I am not saying don't drive AT ALL. Certainly it is OK to be within at least a short drive of work. But now it is not uncommon to see people spending an hour or more each way in the car to get to work so they can have their 5,000 square foot McMansion (which wastes gobs of energy to power, heat, and cool, BTW). THAT is what will have to change.

When you speak of 4 gallons of gas a day, you are talking about approx 80 miles round trip from where you live to work and back.

Automobiles that only get 20 MPG are about to become obsolete, my friend. In a few decades we will look back at today's cars' gas mileages and shake our heads in amazement at the wastefulness of it all. People will take their SUVs out of the garage only very occassionally when they truly make sense to use, instead of using them for every single errand throughout the day.

Again, you must agree, THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF FUEL. JUST AN ABUNDANCE OF GREED.

It is true, there is no shortage of oil or fuel. However, there is a shortage of CHEAP oil and fuel.

And yes, there is an abundance of greed: from the greedy American consumer who demands unlimited cheap gas forever, and who is howling for scapegoats to blame should reality not match up to their greedy unrealistic expectations.

LOL...yea, single digits in the billions per quarter...bigger than the entire GNP of some nations is just simply "small cheese". B)

PITbull, wake up! They are making so much money because consumers (that's you and me) keep buying what they're selling!

It is ridiculous to buy buy buy so much stuff from a company or an industry, and then complain that they are making so much money.

If it bothers you so much, STOP FEEDING THE BEAST!

 

[RowUnderDCA]

Not worthy of you. I never said every employer. I was quoting the CEO of one company, McDonald's. A lot of employers are paying only the minimum wage because they can get away with it in this economy.

Have you seen the thread about the gate agent walkout at PIT? They are starting at $6.83/hr and they were offered a lavish $0.07/hr raise. That is obscene.

Two inaccurate straw man arguments in the space of three postings! if we raise the minimum wage will have the economy of Europe and if every employer pays above minimum wage why do we need it?

(technically, one isn't a strawman, but an exaggeration).]

This is what drives me crazy about the stupid political dialogue in the U.S. Even smart people fall for the fear mongering.

Many can use public transit. (And yes, that means more of an investment in transit to make it more user friendly to more people, and smarter development to put people closer to transit and/or closer to where they work, and less of an investment on 12-lane highways to exurbia.) Besides, I am not saying don't drive AT ALL. Certainly it is OK to be within at least a short drive of work. But now it is not uncommon to see people spending an hour or more each way in the car to get to work so they can have their 5,000 square foot McMansion (which wastes gobs of energy to power, heat, and cool, BTW). THAT is what will have to change.
Automobiles that only get 20 MPG are about to become obsolete, my friend. In a few decades we will look back at today's cars' gas mileages and shake our heads in amazement at the wastefulness of it all. People will take their SUVs out of the garage only very occassionally when they truly make sense to use, instead of using them for every single errand throughout the day.
It is true, there is no shortage of oil or fuel. However, there is a shortage of CHEAP oil and fuel.

And yes, there is an abundance of greed: from the greedy American consumer who demands unlimited cheap gas forever, and who is howling for scapegoats to blame should reality not match up to their greedy unrealistic expectations.
PITbull, wake up! They are making so much money because consumers (that's you and me) keep buying what they're selling!

It is ridiculous to buy buy buy so much stuff from a company or an industry, and then complain that they are making so much money.

If it bothers you so much, STOP FEEDING THE BEAST!

Americans of means have been spending the better part of 4 decades moving AWAY from the shared expense of running our country; keeping ourselves clean and healthy; and preparing the next generation by moving away from the people that prepare their food; sell them consumer products; and sweep the floors. The reason we live so far from work is because we're greedy and selfish! Poor working people don't choose to live far from work, they choose to be near their families and do the best they can.

It's not about 'it's difficult to live near work,' it's about "I don't want to help pay for the society that I make my money off of AND I don't want my kids to go to school with people not like us: rich and white."

America needs to grow up about a lot of things, not just energy and transportation.

By the way, I don't manage to consume 4 gallons of gas a week, and I have to get across town every morning before mass transit opens.

I should temper my rant, by saying that I understand that airline employees are understandibly different than your average worker. Airlines have implicitly provided live/work flexibility, along with travel, as a benefit. I think about 'now' is the time to pay airline employees more and encourage more rational choices regarding travel and energy use, but that's just my judgement call.

I guess my prescription for good karma is "don't make choices to avoid your community just because it has costs associated with it." and "Don't expect me, as an urban dweller, to be so eager to bail out the outer suburbs republicans that have created a social, political racket by demonizing city dwellers as poor, black and gay (Karl Rove and 2004)." Enjoy your energy crisis.

 

[PITbull]

Bear,

What are you..."Lost in Space"? At the present moment, the choices are extremely LIMITED. Hybrid cars are just coming out...at a huge expense. And that doesn't eliminate oil fuel consumption completely. Meanwhile, back at the "OK CORRALE", you just can't dump the vehicle you still owe, even if it is an SUV, and you can't quit a job, or just up and sell your house, pull kids out of school because of gas prices. It would be better to curb the greed and friggin REGULATE!

I think folks spouting out solutions for the future, telling everyone how late our society is on the issue is playing "hindsight 20/20" games. Everyone who has a brain knows what the solutions are...LESS DEPENDENCY ON OIL!

Give us all a break with the righteous I-know-everything-about-human-nature when it would be much easier to balance out the Greed BY REGULATING FUEL UNTIL AN ULTERNATIVE IS IN PROGRESS.

I would put a wager on that any politician who is directly or indirectly associated with oil companies will be VOTED OUT come November. Keep in mind, the very wealthy, big-business do or diers are 2% and that vote doesn't go very far!

The folks in the mega mansions don't give a crap about fuel prices, they can afford boats, cars, homes, fuel at any price. I'm speaking about the "averag Joe". You know they exist right? I live 10 miles from where I work, and I work from home 3 days a week. I have the same Tank of gas, I've had since two mondays ago. That's just lucky.

I don't speak from my reference, I speak about those I see around me everywhere! :angry:

And let me throw this in here so you have my point of reference....I WAS a moderate REPUBLICAN UNTIL GW Bush took office in 2001. I learned a hard lesson about the importance of "balance" in everything from population growth, global economics, big business, unions, wealth, poverty, health, sickness, religion, politics etc..

Man, are we off kilter!

 

[Bear96]

Everyone who has a brain knows what the solutions are...LESS DEPENDENCY ON OIL!

Yes, but no one is willing to DO anything about it -- to voluntarily make the individual and national policy choices necessary to get less dependent on oil.

. . . it would be much easier to balance out the Greed BY REGULATING FUEL UNTIL AN ULTERNATIVE IS IN PROGRESS.

I have already asked you in a previous post what you mean by "regulating" fuel. You didn't answer. And I explained that how, if you mean some sort of price controls, that will only lead to supply shortages -- meaning instead of only expensive gas being available at the corner Sheetz, NO gas will be available. So please explain how "regulation" will make things better? Or if you didn't mean price controls, please explain exactly what you mean by "regulation"?

I along with others have also pointed out low gas prices (which would appear to be the goal of your "regulation" idea) will only SLOW DOWN the transition to alternative fuels and the lifestyle changes that will have to be necessary for many Americans to wean themselves off of their oil addiction. You haven't responded to that either.

Finally, I pointed out that your "alternative fuels" solution is likely to still mean higher prices of whatever it is that will be put in gas tanks than what we have been used to during the cheap oil era that is now ending. Alternative fuels are NOT cheap. If you are picturing some nice alternative fuel available for $0.99 or $1.99 eliminating all of our problems, you are going to be disappointed. When gasoline is $10/gal and alternative fuels are $5/gal, a lot of people are still going to have to make changes.

Yes these changes will take time. We had a nice big warning in the 1970s, and did nothing about it, leaving us in a difficult situation now. Should we continue to ignore the problem and hope it goes away, like we did after the 1970s oil problems were over? Should we do "pretend" things like "regulate" oil (whatever that means) which will only create future supply problems, or should we finally do the hard work that needs to be done to prepare for the future?

 

[PITbull]

Regulation meaning price capping. The price should go up like a run-away-train, which would potentially cripple the entire economy to the point of reverse growth and collapse.

I am all for the Government levying winfall taxes, and use these funds in the form of grants to corporations who would use these funds for research and development of energy ulternatives.

Oil companies will not use any of their profits to look for alternatives that will yield less consumption and use of energy, cheaper for the consumer.. Its big business and they themselves are stock holders.

You know as well as I do that these issues can't be debated and discussed fully on a message board, but I get your message.

 

[Bear96]

Regulation meaning price capping. The price should go up like a run-away-train, which would potentially cripple the entire economy to the point of reverse growth and collapse.

And as I mentioned before, price capping in the U.S. would simply mean that oil sellers would sell their product in countries where they can get higher prices, leaving the U.S. with NOTHING. How is that a solution? We're dealing with a global oil market here, and China and India are pretty thirsty. If the U.S. refuses to allow Americans to pay what the Chinese and Indians are willing to pay for a barrel of oil, guess where all the oil will go? Talk about crippling the economy ...

Oil companies will not use any of their profits to look for alternatives that will yield less consumption and use of energy, cheaper for the consumer.

Why is it the oil companies' responsibility to risk billions of their dollars to look for alternatives? (And do you see the little logical conflict in both levying a windfall profit tax against oil companies, AND expecting them to have profits large enough to be able to spend the billions of dollars necessary to develop alternative energy sources or build more refineries?) Why are you always looking for "someone else" to solve the problems? Get some investors together, and feel free to start the PITbull Alternative Energy Development Corporation. Make those alternative fuels happen if the solution is so easy!

 

[PITbull]

And as I mentioned before, price capping in the U.S. would simply mean that oil sellers would sell their product in countries where they can get higher prices, leaving the U.S. with NOTHING. How is that a solution? We're dealing with a global oil market here, and China and India are pretty thirsty. If the U.S. refuses to allow Americans to pay what the Chinese and Indians are willing to pay for a barrel of oil, guess where all the oil will go? Talk about crippling the economy ...


Why is it the oil companies' responsibility to risk billions of their dollars to look for alternatives? (And do you see the little logical conflict in both levying a windfall profit tax against oil companies, AND expecting them to have profits large enough to be able to spend the billions of dollars necessary to develop alternative energy sources or build more refineries?) Why are you always looking for "someone else" to solve the problems? Get some investors together, and feel free to start the PITbull Alternative Energy Development Corporation. Make those alternative fuels happen if the solution is so easy!

How would China citizens be able to afford $5 gallon gas to their population of workers making $50 a day? That includes india too. I spoke of European countries who have $5 gasoline prices but their health care is included.

Potential for $5-$6 a gallon and up only happens in America because we purchase everything on Credit, "buy a hamburger today, pay you in the future"...we just don't feel the pinch right away...not until we are credited out, house liens and all.

And as I mentioned before, price capping in the U.S. would simply mean that oil sellers would sell their product in countries where they can get higher prices, leaving the U.S. with NOTHING. How is that a solution? We're dealing with a global oil market here, and China and India are pretty thirsty. If the U.S. refuses to allow Americans to pay what the Chinese and Indians are willing to pay for a barrel of oil, guess where all the oil will go? Talk about crippling the economy ...


Why is it the oil companies' responsibility to risk billions of their dollars to look for alternatives? (And do you see the little logical conflict in both levying a windfall profit tax against oil companies, AND expecting them to have profits large enough to be able to spend the billions of dollars necessary to develop alternative energy sources or build more refineries?) Why are you always looking for "someone else" to solve the problems? Get some investors together, and feel free to start the PITbull Alternative Energy Development Corporation. Make those alternative fuels happen if the solution is so easy!

Solution easy????? That's your Mantra; not mine. I say REGULATE as a temporary. Other countries second and third world can't not afford $5-6 gallons of gas with only fueling their tanks as a return.

We have the ability to tap our own oil. You say its good for only 10 years...how in the heck to you know how much oil there is?

 

[Bear96]

How would China citizens be able to afford $5 gallon gas to their population of workers making $50 a day?

The demand in China and India so far is mostly for industry and business (manufacturing), not fueling individual autos. They (or their American parent companies) are willing and able to pay what it takes to keep cranking out toy dolls and other cheap crap to sell at WalMart. Even with higher oil prices it is still cheaper to make stuff there than in the U.S.

We have the ability to tap our own oil. You say its good for only 10 years...how in the heck to you know how much oil there is?

What did I say is only good for 10 years? I think you are confusing something I said, or I didn't say it clearly. What are you referring to?

 

[PITbull]

The demand in China and India so far is mostly for industry and business (manufacturing), not fueling individual autos. They (or their American parent companies) are willing and able to pay what it takes to keep cranking out toy dolls and other cheap crap to sell at WalMart. Even with higher oil prices it is still cheaper to make stuff there than in the U.S.
What did I say is only good for 10 years? I think you are confusing something I said, or I didn't say it clearly. What are you referring to?

Bear,

The quote below was from page 6 from Cluebyfour; not you. Sorry.

"I'm not a tree hugger or anything. ANWR is not a magic bullet. ANWR, the areas off the continental shelf that are current closed to drilling, and off the Alaskan coast together might give us 10 years".

 

[ClueByFour]

"I'm not a tree hugger or anything. ANWR is not a magic bullet. ANWR, the areas off the continental shelf that are current closed to drilling, and off the Alaskan coast together might give us 10 years".

And that's about right. That's in terms of possible reserves--you cannot count a drop in ANWR or the continental shelves as "proven."

We need to reduce our consumption of oil. Letting the market price it out of reach is the best way to achieve that.

Drilling in X (insert location) only prolongs the inevitable. Whereas (as my earlier post points out) having the market drive the price up will encourage alternative energy development.