$400,000,0000 Divided By 3,500 Pilots
- Thread starter Pacemaker
- Start date
Tim Nelson
Veteran
Folks have already seen that going through Chap 11 bankruptcy with 1113 sweetheart letters aren't worth the paper they are printed on. They have also seen recent case law applied towards groups that went to the judge instead of agreeing to a company offer. In Both cases, No employee came out in worse consequences.USA320Pilot said:
One of the cases was on US AIRWAYS. ALPA refused US AIRWAYS initial offer of the contribution retirement so US AIRWAYS went to the judge....along the way out of the courthouse, ALPA settled with the company but not without securing millions more in an enhanced retirement proposal from the company.
Further, folks have already seen that the language in these bankruptcy contracts are like drunken promises in the dark. It just doesn't make good sense to blindly give more.
And do you really think the ole, MDA trick will work a second time? or how about Jets for Jobs? I don't think you have to look far to see why the vast majority of IAM members [141 or 141m] haven't given a further round of concessions much of a fleeting thought. There simply isn't much hope that exist that gives members a vision of a future with this airline. Reports on this page said that even your management is talking chapter 7, which is in agreement with several analyst.
Chapter 7 talk by your management is not conductive of a future so at this point in the game I wouldn't be surprised if many already see their unemployment checks coming and want to protect their unemployment checks from being further reduced.
And lastly, as far as fleet service is concerned, so what if they make considerably less than Southwest. The fleet service retirement is now comparable to McDonalds or Wall mart so nothing there to lose. I mean if you do the math, there are fleet service members who are only getting your company to contribute amounts equal or less than Wal mart positions [which is outright aweful]. I mean over 30% of fleet service members are only getting a maximum contribution from this company of about $1,000 a year. I'm talking about members with over 20 years with this company. Unfortunately, it's time to look for a new job anyways for most, however, many don't want to quit without getting unemployment or severance benefits. I really don't see what leverage your company has in getting workers, especially highly skilled mechanics who can go between industries, to work for food. And even the unskilled blue collar workers can find comparable jobs if more is given at this job. The only leverage this company has is trying to get more from the individual pilots whose continuing professional career is doomed if this company falters.
I mean here is what it comes down to....your company wants Jetblue wages and workers are finding out that Jetblue wages are available at hundreds of other companies.
At any rate, IMHO, this company has charted itself on a collision course if it neglects innovative or imaginative ways in turning a key to get labor in the house.
regards,
USA320Pilot
Veteran
- May 18, 2003
- 8,175
- 1,539
700UW:
700UW said: "Well a320, your information is not accurate, in yesterday's meeting with IAM 141M, the words bankruptcy and liqiudation were used by Lakefield, he said he was not sure if they could obtain DIP financing and would have to chapter 7 US."
USA320Pilot said: I agree that a Chapter 7 bankruptcy could occur because the company may not obtain DIP financing, but, the company is looking at a pre-packaged bankruptcy and DIP investors would be placed at the top of the creditors list, if this occurs.
The question is how can the equity be preserved?
In its SEC filing last week US Airways (not USA320Pilot) said the company is evaluating a Chapter 11 "judicial restructuring", which is not a Chapter 7 "liquidation" and seems to indicate the company may enter Chapter 11. If they do, management has made it known any labor group who does not reach a new labor accord will be placed in the "cross hairs" of a S.1113 motion. Therefore, each union could have a choice.
Respectfully,
USA320Pilot
700UW said: "Well a320, your information is not accurate, in yesterday's meeting with IAM 141M, the words bankruptcy and liqiudation were used by Lakefield, he said he was not sure if they could obtain DIP financing and would have to chapter 7 US."
USA320Pilot said: I agree that a Chapter 7 bankruptcy could occur because the company may not obtain DIP financing, but, the company is looking at a pre-packaged bankruptcy and DIP investors would be placed at the top of the creditors list, if this occurs.
The question is how can the equity be preserved?
In its SEC filing last week US Airways (not USA320Pilot) said the company is evaluating a Chapter 11 "judicial restructuring", which is not a Chapter 7 "liquidation" and seems to indicate the company may enter Chapter 11. If they do, management has made it known any labor group who does not reach a new labor accord will be placed in the "cross hairs" of a S.1113 motion. Therefore, each union could have a choice.
Respectfully,
USA320Pilot
- Banned
- #21
And since Lorenzo there has been no contract abrogation, and I think a judge might be reluctant when all the unions can show how this management team who is using Seigel's plan has pissed away almost $4 billiion in concessions all ready.
You keep implying as it will just be a stroke of a pen, let me refresh your memory once again.
From Sharon Levin Bankruptcy Attorney with her specialty being airlines:
With US Airways in Chapter 11 bankruptcy and an announcement by United Airlines that the second-largest US airline had hired bankruptcy lawyers after the attacks of September 11, many Grievance Committee Chairman, Assistant General Chairman (AGC), Grand Lodge Representatives (GLR) and other union officials were eager to hear an explanation of bankruptcy and how it could affect our futures. For that reason, District 141 M. brought our bankruptcy attorney Sharon Levine of Lowenstein Sandler PC to explain.
Levine started her presentation with an overview of bankruptcy. The main goal of bankruptcy is to relieve a debtor of debts, thereby providing an opportunity for a fresh start. Bankruptcy also benefits creditors by providing a forum for an orderly liquidation of a debtor’s estate or a judicially scrutinized plan for full or partial repayment of creditor, and protecting unsecured creditors from preferential or fraudulent transfers of the debtor’s property and requiring adequate protection of secured creditor’s collateral.
There are two types of filling, Chapter 7, Liquidation and Chapter 11, Reorganization.
Levine continued, explaining the two types, but described Chapter 11 filings in depth. She explained the process and enlightened the attendees on all aspects of a chapter 11 filing. One thing that has stuck out in the US Airways members was a term called Fraudulent Conveyance.
Fraudulent Conveyance: A transfer of the debtor’s property is fraudulent if, made with the actual intent to hinder, delay, or defraud a creditor. (Note that sometimes the debtor’s actual intent maybe inferred circumstantially by certain “badges of fraud.†Alternatively, a debtor receives less than the reasonably equivalent value and was insolvent at the time of the transfer or became insolvent because of it or had “unreasonably small capital†remaining after the transfer for its business operations or intends to incur debts that it will be unable to repay as they mature. Many of the US Airways members asked hard-hitting questions about this as US Airways sold off airplanes and parts for less then fair market value not too long ago.
Our United attendees asked assertive questions in regards to the ESOP stock, numerous assets that United owns, and the ramifications on how they would be affected if United decided to file.
Levine also went over all the procedures and steps in the bankruptcy codes. One item she covered in depth is the 1113 letter, which refers to the section of code that ensures that a company negotiates with the union before they seek abrogation of the labor agreement. When a company seeks protection, the agreement remains in effect. When a union negotiates an 1113 letter it secures an agreement with the company showing that the company will not seek further cuts from labor. To this date, no company that has had an 1113 letter negotiated has ever asked the court to abrogate it.
Companies that request abrogation of the labor agreement but it must meet the following nine (9) distinct requirements:
1. The debtor in possession must have made a proposal to the union.
2. The proposal must be based upon the most complete and reliable information available at the time of the proposal.
3. The modification must be necessary to permit reorganization.
4. The modification must provide that all affected parties be treated fairly and equitably.
5. The debtor must provide the union with such relevant information as is necessary to evaluate the proposal.
6. The debtor must have met with the collective bargaining representative at the reasonable times subsequent to making the proposal.
7. The debtor must have negotiated with the union concerning the proposal in good faith.
8. The union must have refused to accept the proposal with good cause.
9. The balance of the equities must clearly favor rejection of the agreement.
Levine also noted that bankruptcy is not the preferred course for your contract.
You keep implying as it will just be a stroke of a pen, let me refresh your memory once again.
From Sharon Levin Bankruptcy Attorney with her specialty being airlines:
With US Airways in Chapter 11 bankruptcy and an announcement by United Airlines that the second-largest US airline had hired bankruptcy lawyers after the attacks of September 11, many Grievance Committee Chairman, Assistant General Chairman (AGC), Grand Lodge Representatives (GLR) and other union officials were eager to hear an explanation of bankruptcy and how it could affect our futures. For that reason, District 141 M. brought our bankruptcy attorney Sharon Levine of Lowenstein Sandler PC to explain.
Levine started her presentation with an overview of bankruptcy. The main goal of bankruptcy is to relieve a debtor of debts, thereby providing an opportunity for a fresh start. Bankruptcy also benefits creditors by providing a forum for an orderly liquidation of a debtor’s estate or a judicially scrutinized plan for full or partial repayment of creditor, and protecting unsecured creditors from preferential or fraudulent transfers of the debtor’s property and requiring adequate protection of secured creditor’s collateral.
There are two types of filling, Chapter 7, Liquidation and Chapter 11, Reorganization.
Levine continued, explaining the two types, but described Chapter 11 filings in depth. She explained the process and enlightened the attendees on all aspects of a chapter 11 filing. One thing that has stuck out in the US Airways members was a term called Fraudulent Conveyance.
Fraudulent Conveyance: A transfer of the debtor’s property is fraudulent if, made with the actual intent to hinder, delay, or defraud a creditor. (Note that sometimes the debtor’s actual intent maybe inferred circumstantially by certain “badges of fraud.†Alternatively, a debtor receives less than the reasonably equivalent value and was insolvent at the time of the transfer or became insolvent because of it or had “unreasonably small capital†remaining after the transfer for its business operations or intends to incur debts that it will be unable to repay as they mature. Many of the US Airways members asked hard-hitting questions about this as US Airways sold off airplanes and parts for less then fair market value not too long ago.
Our United attendees asked assertive questions in regards to the ESOP stock, numerous assets that United owns, and the ramifications on how they would be affected if United decided to file.
Levine also went over all the procedures and steps in the bankruptcy codes. One item she covered in depth is the 1113 letter, which refers to the section of code that ensures that a company negotiates with the union before they seek abrogation of the labor agreement. When a company seeks protection, the agreement remains in effect. When a union negotiates an 1113 letter it secures an agreement with the company showing that the company will not seek further cuts from labor. To this date, no company that has had an 1113 letter negotiated has ever asked the court to abrogate it.
Companies that request abrogation of the labor agreement but it must meet the following nine (9) distinct requirements:
1. The debtor in possession must have made a proposal to the union.
2. The proposal must be based upon the most complete and reliable information available at the time of the proposal.
3. The modification must be necessary to permit reorganization.
4. The modification must provide that all affected parties be treated fairly and equitably.
5. The debtor must provide the union with such relevant information as is necessary to evaluate the proposal.
6. The debtor must have met with the collective bargaining representative at the reasonable times subsequent to making the proposal.
7. The debtor must have negotiated with the union concerning the proposal in good faith.
8. The union must have refused to accept the proposal with good cause.
9. The balance of the equities must clearly favor rejection of the agreement.
Levine also noted that bankruptcy is not the preferred course for your contract.
crazyincanton
Advanced
- Jan 10, 2003
- 151
- 1
Just playing with some figures:
If the pilots are $400,000,000 then this equates to the other $400,000,000 being divide by roughly 25,000 employees=$16,000 per year. If the $800,000,000 was divided equally among all 28,000 who are left this comes out to be $28,500 per employee.
The other scenario, if the pilots are $400,000,000 and the mechanics are another
$120,000,000 then the remaining approximately 18,000 will have to pony up about $15,500 per year. These are just estimates based on the $800,000,000 and the approximate number of employees left. But if true, this is truly staggering and in no way doable. Does management know this and doesn't expect it to pass so that they can blame liquidation or whatever they have up their sleeves on labor? These figures are astronomical. If I am completely off base, please let me know because I just can't believe these are the numbers that the company expects.
If the pilots are $400,000,000 then this equates to the other $400,000,000 being divide by roughly 25,000 employees=$16,000 per year. If the $800,000,000 was divided equally among all 28,000 who are left this comes out to be $28,500 per employee.
The other scenario, if the pilots are $400,000,000 and the mechanics are another
$120,000,000 then the remaining approximately 18,000 will have to pony up about $15,500 per year. These are just estimates based on the $800,000,000 and the approximate number of employees left. But if true, this is truly staggering and in no way doable. Does management know this and doesn't expect it to pass so that they can blame liquidation or whatever they have up their sleeves on labor? These figures are astronomical. If I am completely off base, please let me know because I just can't believe these are the numbers that the company expects.
$400 million from 3500 pilots. Get real. Even if you lowered Captains to flat rate $80k, and FOs to $45k, you'd only get about about $250 million in savings, not counting only marginal productivity increases that Lakefield would be capable of implementing.
$120 million from mechs would have to involve $20k each . . . . or just get rid of them and outsource everything.
These target savings have to be wrong, they're so ridiculous.
$120 million from mechs would have to involve $20k each . . . . or just get rid of them and outsource everything.
These target savings have to be wrong, they're so ridiculous.
