2015 Pilot Discussion.

[nycbusdriver]

It makes no difference weather we are in section 6 or not. Anything or everything could be put on the table. Section 6 would allow us to strike? The NMB would never allow it. Parker is managing our expectations when he is saying that.

 
No.  There is really no legal requirement for Parker to negotiate anything.  Section 6 requires good faith negotiations.  That's the difference.  Parker could have just proffered arbitration if the pilots had asked for fresh orange juice, rather than canned, for the cockpit.  And THAT would be the end of it.
 
The ONLY thing that Parker owes us is the AA Green Book until the amendable date, or a cost neutral arbitration.
 
We can ask for anything, anytime.  As the old saying goes: "Wish in one hand and s*** in the other.  See which one gets full first."

 

[CactusPilot1]

The constant west venom towards him is proof positive. He handled Eric Ferguson, and delivered the east into an AA merge without the Nic.
Eric Ferguson has destroyed the west. He was offered the Nic with fences which would now be gone. Almost every upgrade system wide would be a west pilot. Almost every WIDEBODY upgrade. The 2004 hire rejected that. Ask him why when he slinks through his base.
Mike Cleary prevented it. He is a labor hero.

Mike likes to stroke his own ego.

I recall the recall because of Mike's success. East pilot blog, the Compass Correction published a letter by one of Mike's biggest fans, Eric Ferguson.

And finally, here is an excerpt from a letter written by Eric Ferguson actually supporting Mike Cleary because he believes this will help Leonidass cause!

NOTE: we will put a link to the entire letter on our website

"There was a time when I contemplated the recall of Mike Cleary and Randy Mowrey. However, when we began to discuss this among West pilots, it became clear that most see his leadership (though I wouldnt call it that) as helpful to the cause of defending against DOH and enforcing the Nicolau. After some reflection, I realized that I had become too close to the conflagration that is Mike to see what was happening and how it really benefited the West in the long run.
While it is true that a very few may pay the ultimate price and lose their careers due to our unions many inadequate or under-performing components (all courtesy of Mike and his friends), ultimate victory for the West- and therefore all US Airways pilots- is much more likely with him in charge. Therefore, my new strategy is to support Mike and help keep him in power as long as possible. If East pilots are truly dissatisfied with Mike and Randys performance (as is apparent that many are), then they will have to do something about it on their own. In the meantime, we can all enjoy our Cleary imposed vow of poverty until the West ultimately prevails in court, or until the East pilots simply find a way to make good on their obligations to the West via the arbitrated seniority list.
Bring it, Mike. The West is more than ready.
I recommend that all West pilots continue to support Mike Cleary, though not for any of the reasons he would like our support. He is perfect for the job.
Please visit www.cactuspilot.com to keep informed and continue the fight.
Sincerely,
Eric Ferguson
Co-founder of Leonidas, LLC

Former RICO Defendant

Former USAPA Las Vegas Chairman
"

Q. Why is the West supporting Mike Cleary? Why dont they want him recalled?
A. They have continually said that Mike Cleary helps their case and furthers their goal of destroying USAPA. The West pilots state that Mike Clearys actions are providing more and more new evidence to support a future DFR lawsuit.

http://compasscorrectioncoalition.com/2011/05/17/a-silent-majority/

Way to go Mike, you go girl!!!

 

[luvthe9]

Oh how true........




"I smile at how naive the LAA Reps still are. They believe the company was not ready for their own proposals. In truth, it is all part of the plan to keep the APA BOD off balance and to hand them incomplete language at the last moment to ratify. Oh, how we have been manipulated! Makes me sad because it was so unnecessary. The company shows how little respect they have for the employees and it would have taken so little for them to have established goodwill. Next will come intimidation.....we have seen this so often.....

Our Reps have had little success in changing the course of history because their hands have been tied by an MOU that set the stage for all of this. Thank you Gary Hummel......"

 

[Phoenix]

No.  There is really no legal requirement for Parker to negotiate anything.  ...

Parker and Kirby came to us asking for concessions. And they were the ones willing to pay what they all edge is $1.8B. They came to us and demanded to set a price.

 

[AirwAr]

This article, http://www.star-telegram.com/news/business/aviation/sky-talk-blog/article5553120.html? references a domestic/international fence.
 
"...The last piece of the contract to be negotiated is the elimination of the Intl/Dom fence...."
 
What is this fence about?

Read more here: http://www.star-telegram.com/news/business/aviation/sky-talk-blog/article5553120.html?#storylink=cpy

 

[Phoenix]

This article, http://www.star-telegram.com/news/business/aviation/sky-talk-blog/article5553120.html? references a domestic/international fence.
 
"...The last piece of the contract to be negotiated is the elimination of the Intl/Dom fence...."[/size]
 
What is this fence about?

Read more here: http://www.star-telegram.com/news/business/aviation/sky-talk-blog/article5553120.html?#storylink=cpy

It doesn't matter because negotiations are over!!

AA uses several planes to fly to international destinations as well as domestic destinations, but the crews that operate those aircraft sre trained to fly domestically or internationally, rather than both. Parker wants to eliminate that distinction which will result in fewer pilots required.

 

[flyer63]

Pure fantasy.
Mike Cleary is a fool. Didn't think out that strategy very well goingg into a possible merger. He screwed the East. If I were him, I'd stay in New Hampshire, living off vacation extortion.

He kept the NIC off this property and is doing just fine owning numerous planet fitness up here in NH. Stay away in your cave in PHX

 

[CactusPilot1]

He kept the NIC off this property and is doing just fine owning numerous planet fitness up here in NH. Stay away in your cave in PHX

What planet? Never heard of it. Maybe he can use his trademark to add another workout routine to the Yoga classes on the planet.

What planet is Mike on?
http://www.usapa.org

 

[Claxon]

He kept the NIC off this property and is doing just fine owning numerous planet fitness up here in NH. Stay away in your cave in PHX

He did his job well. Eric Ferguson accomplished absolutely NOTHING with his strategy.
No Nic. But he could have absolutely had it with fences now gone. The 2004 hire within one year attempted to leapfrog 17 yr east pilots. It didn't work Eric.
Soon the west will be denied a seat and the story is they will crawl back for a seat on the negotiating comm. perhaps someone other than Eric should be listened to. He is a tired and broken record. And you bought a $1.98 tie from him for $675.00
You simply made Marty rich. Nothing more.
At least Mike took care of his group and knew the bounds of the law. People in his multiple gyms become healthier by the day. Lives improved.
Eric simply has no business being an attorney. His limited knowledge got him in over his head. Mike hired Wilder. You know what that gets you. It gets you shut down if you are Eric. Eric is a toxic and pathological liar. Mike told his group and the west the truth, and the truth is the Nic would not stand.

 

[CactusPilot1]

He did his job well. Eric Ferguson accomplished absolutely NOTHING with his strategy.
No Nic. But he could have absolutely had it with fences now gone. The 2004 hire within one year attempted to leapfrog 17 yr east pilots. It didn't work Eric.
Soon the west will be denied a seat and the story is they will crawl back for a seat on the negotiating comm. perhaps someone other than Eric should be listened to. He is a tired and broken record. And you bought a $1.98 tie from him for $675.00
You simply made Marty rich. Nothing more.
At least Mike took care of his group and knew the bounds of the law. People in his multiple gyms become healthier by the day. Lives improved.
Eric simply has no business being an attorney. His limited knowledge got him in over his head. Mike hired Wilder. You know what that gets you. It gets you shut down if you are Eric. Eric is a toxic and pathological liar. Mike told his group and the west the truth, and the truth is the Nic would not stand.

Sorry pal, you signed up for the arbitration, it's too bad you are not man enough to abide by the results.

 

[usfliboi]

I feel so sorry for the guys who just can't do anything other than play romper room games on here.. These are the "professionals" who fly our aircraft and are responsible for hundreds of souls on board...scares the hell out of you when you see how many kids are behind the stick.....

 

[luvthe9]

What planet is Mike on?http://www.usapa.org

Planet NICcrusher located in the AOL solar system.

 

[CactusPilot1]

Planet NICcrusher located in the AOL solar system.

Planet NicCrusher...

I have to admit, the AOL solar system beats being next to urANUS.

 

[usabusdriver]

As much as I would like to see the raise, I am ticked over Kirby's response to a VERY reasonable request for calendar day. 11 hour 3 day trips are ridiculous. My firm YES vote is now NO. It's become a matter of principal for me at this point.

 
 
That is fine to vote no because of an issue, except you fail to espouse how that no vote would change the offer that stands.  If this TA is rejected through membership ratification then we go to arbitration.  That arbitration is by definition cost neutral.  We would lose approximately 10% valuation from the current offer.  As well as what nycbusdriver stated, we would be forced to move the pieces of the pie around and make up the rig valuation from some other aspect of the contract.
 
If this were regular section 6 negotiations I might agree, if we make a stand on something we could force the company to move with unity.  But in the current environment we would only be shooting ourselves in the foot.  The company offer is 75% above group II rates everyone was making in 2012.  Oh by the way there was an effort to mitigate the sitting in the hotel all day problem with a 1/3.25 rig for trips with more calendar days than duty days, but the APA gave it away for .10 increase in per diem.  So I find it rather amusing that this is now a rally cry.
 
From a negotiating committee email 
 
[SIZE=12pt]In January 2013, the APA Board of Directors approved a list of contractual improvements that were presented to the two management teams. This step initiated a valuation phase to confirm that the improvements equate to $87 million per year over the life of the contract ($522 million total). [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]During the valuation phase, we received the most current information on projected training events, distance learning requirements, overall block hour projections and scheduling assumptions for the most current business model. There were minor differences regarding modeling philosophies and duty rig assumptions, but they were resolved. After reaching agreement on valuations with updated data, we presented the APA Board three scenarios that the management teams agreed met the valuation target. The decision was made to forego the originally proposed 30 months of pay protection and the 1:3.25 additional F-time rig for sequences with more calendar days than duty periods. With these two items removed from the list, there was some value left over that, when redeployed, resulted in higher per diem rates than those in APA's original proposal.[/SIZE]

 

[luvthe9]

GOOD LETTER




Officers and Members of the APA Board,

I want to thank those of you who responded to my December 27 letter. It is gratifying to know that, despite your busy schedules and holiday plans, many of you commented on my thoughts and ideas. I do believe that the open exchange of ideas is crucial to moving this union and our carrier forward.

In that vein, let me discuss one thing that will come up again and again - that is the steps backward that the "Green Book" represents over the already weak post-bankruptcy contracts of the LUS and LAW pilots. As bad as those agreements were, we have regressed further and it is very important to recognize how we got there - APA negotiated the "Green Book" behind the backs of almost one-third of the current membership in a secret deal with management. They did so in a vacuum, without a basic understanding of many of the tenants of those two contracts and the protections they represented. Since that time, they have allowed management to dictate when and how the agreement has been implemented and and failed to support those disadvantaged by those management decisions. Two final thoughts: 1) I want to make sure that the board understands that the contract will not be fully implemented until 2016, if not later, and 2) At this point, I cannot tell you what parts of the "Green Book" are currently implemented and which aren't because no implementation list exists and that frustrates me as a pilot who wants to fly by and defend his contract.

That said, some members of the board think that negotiations are over. In reality, they have only begun. Having dealt with this management for almost a decade, negotiations are over when the "final language" is written, management implements their interpretation of what was written, we grieve the issue...(pause as we wait for months and years for the grievance to be heard, rejected, reheard, rejected) and finally reach an arbitrator who sides with the company because the final language was vague or in some other way interpretable in any way but the way in which the pilots interpreted it. Only then do you have final language and a contract. Hundreds of grievances later, we know that this is the case. As you can see, we are a long way from completing negotiations with this management group.

As to the current negotiations, it would appear that some of you think that the money outweighs the downside of giving more contract relief. And while the numbers vary, many on the board think the gives are basically "minor" (if $120 to $200 million, according to APA valuations, can be considered minor) when seen in contrast to the "historic" pay rates offered.

Gentlemen, if you believe the valuations APA is using are correct and that management is really giving us $1.9 billion dollars out of the goodness of their hearts, then I have a couple of good savings and loans to recommend AND some swamp land for sale.

Here is a my perspective on some of those gives:

I try to take things at their simplest level - so, if we take the 3 LUS domiciles and split domestic and international flying (airbus and 757/767), add LAA ( Airbus/737/767) domiciles equaling a total of approximately 24 sets of crews (conservatively), then consider only the short call reserves required to operate the flying (6 crews available daily requires 12 crews at 200k/100k - yes, I know that is low but the resulting number is more conservative that way) the annual cost to the company is $86.4 million per year times 5 years equals $432 million. I would consider that a very conservative number - if my calculations are in error or the assumptions are wrong, I'm sure someone will let me know, but my attempt here is to show just how far off the amounts being talked about are and that those numbers pretty much would wipe out the "minor" give category.

Now let's take another large chunk out - HBT. The company has made a commitment for 122 aircraft at a value of approximately $20 billion. Those aircraft have ranges of 7,500, 7,750, and 8,500 miles respectively. Now, I want you to take a map and a compass - from each domicile, I want you to draw a circle at 7,000 nm in diameter. We have already defined the limits of what we can fly under our current agreement (give or take - DFW-HKG at 7,058 nm is clearly at that limit) Next, I want you to look at cities outside those circles which the company would logically want to fly - remember, our competition can fly them (or the equivalent - substitute IAH for DFW, IAD for JFK) right now but we cannot (think Sydney/Melbourne/Johannesburg/Mumbai to DFW, Singapore/Kuala Lumpur to any of our hubs, Miami to any point beyond Tokyo, LAX to almost any point beyond Tel Aviv). How much profit would each city pair generate annually if we could operate it? $1 million? $5 million? More? Now multiply that by the number of city pairs and then by the years in the contract - how much does that equal? $100 million? $200 million? More?

Next, let's address the A321 Pay Issue: Here is something you may or may not know -
Have you heard that AA is negotiating with Airbus for a "Heavyweight" A321neo (approximately a 214,000 gross takeoff weight) for 2019 delivery that will have transatlantic range (source: AA manager interview with Reuters). This isn't a hypothetical - Airbus has had this plan in develop for years, but they needed a customer willing to buy it in order to launch the program. This is the crux of two issues that management wants - combined domestic and international crews (one day you fly DFW-PHL and the next PHL-CDG) and lower pay for a true 757 replacement aircraft (you can also substitute PHL-LAX and LAX-HNL on the A321neo non-heavyweight in 2017). Still think that A321 pay is a non-issue? What do you think it is worth now? A rough calculation would be $200,000 per airframe per year at current rates. What will it be worth for that extra year contract extension that the company wants and beyond? Even more!

That's a quick valuation on only three of the items management has demanded. It would appear that the value APA places on the demands of the company are woefully underestimated and border on breach of fiduciary responsibility.

Many of you think that management will be back in the future and that will give us an opportunity for more "give and take" to improve our contract. In my opinion, and based on past history, you are dreaming. In 10 years under this management, they never willingly entertained improvements in our contract. If we wanted something improved, the answer to our quid pro quo was either NO! or the price was so high that it was not worth the cost.

Lastly, some of you say take the money now. That rhetoric sounds terrific, but the long term costs are far greater than the costs you state as "fact". Waiting an extra year for a raise may be less costly than the extension of the contract for an extra year - we can only speculate, but given the changes to the industry and the prospects for continued future profitability, that extra year with bankruptcy work rules and no raise seems very foolish indeed. Remember, we are negotiating for years 2020 and beyond, not just for the next year or two. A raise in 2019 tilts the pay calculations further in the direction of staying the course and saying no to managements "offer" on the table.

What we do know is that, if we stay with the "Green Book", the company will be back for HBT relief (and more) if they intend to fully utilize the valuable assets they have on order. If we give up these items willingly for a few dollars per hour, not only will we never get them back but management will continue to pressure us for relief or cost reductions on other items in the future based on the way that they bought us off this time around. This is our chance to get true contractual improvements AND monetary improvements in an environment where the company no longer breaks written agreements and dictates the rules of engagement.

Finally, I want to express my disappointment in the officers and those of you on the board who were part of the -10 voting no for not demonstrating a united front to management by unanimously supporting the offer we put forward. Regardless of personal views or position on the issues, presenting a proposal from a divided board provided management another opportunity to exploit the weakness of the pilot group. As members of the board, you owe it to the entire pilot group to unify and demonstrate a single, strong resolve when dealing with this management. Leadership comes from unity. Division equals failure!