Unions And Management "work Together"

Checking it Out

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Apr 3, 2003
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JetBlue, Southwest in low-cost dogfight

Full Story, Will the Legacy Carriers Survive as they duke it out?



Big guys on the defensive

The big carriers, losing money for years, are going to have to find ways to reinvent themselves to compete, airline industry experts say, adding that a major hurdle is dealing with their unions.

"For whatever reasons, the unions find it hard to believe that the traditional carriers could go out of business," said Michael E. Levine, a former airline executive and now an adjunct professor at Yale Law School. "For them, waiting for business to turn around is not going to work this time."

Chuck Imhof, managing director in the metropolitan area for American Airlines -- which employs 8,500 in the region, about 1,500 more than JetBlue does across the country -- said American is competitive with all other carriers.

"We have the largest network in the world," Imhof said. "We make sure we have more routes, better schedules. We fly to places people want to fly to."

So far, JetBlue and other low-cost airlines have been judicious in picking routes, choosing mostly to undercut the big carriers and avoid battling one another. But that situation is going to change, said Robert Mann, an independent airline industry analyst and consultant in Port Washington.

Time to make money

For low-cost carriers going up against high-cost airlines, "there are bigger pickings now," Mann said. "But eventually, it will be the case that the number of markets where there's a single carrier present will start to diminish and multicarrier competition will be the norm" among the low-cost airlines.

Low-cost airlines have already begun battling one another, said Betsy Snyder, who follows the industry for Standard & Poor's in New York. In January, she noted, JetBlue added a number of transcontinental flights. "Everybody else went in after them," Snyder said.

JetBlue is already preparing for the battles ahead. Last year, the airline ordered 100 midsized jets from Brazil's Embraer SA in a deal valued at $3billion. The addition of the 100-seat Embraer 190s to JetBlue's 61 Airbus A320s, which seat 156 each, will allow JetBlue to aggressively go after new markets, although Neeleman said virtually all of its operations will be domestic. Deliveries are to begin next year.

Neeleman said he expects JetBlue to have a little more than 300 jets in the next two decades. Last month, Neeleman handed analysts at a Merrill Lynch conference a list of 38 possible locations for future growth but said there is no time frame for launching service to those areas, which included many cities in the West and the Midwest, such as Chicago, Cincinnati and Dallas/Fort Worth.

The ambitious plans have led people to compare JetBlue to People Express, which burst onto the scene in the 1980s, offering inexpensive fares and a youthful staff. Even though it had become a $1billion business, People Express went bust in six years, the victim of too-rapid expansion.

Additionally, some analysts worry that JetBlue will have difficulty introducing the 100 Embraers to its fleet and flight crews, who will need training to operate the new planes. Industry observers predict other growing pains, as well. As JetBlue's new airplanes grow older, they will need increasing maintenance, which will raise the airline's costs.

The boss isn't worried

Neeleman professes not to worry.

For one thing, he said, the atmosphere at People Express was "chaotic," unlike that of JetBlue. JetBlue's sales last year were $998.4 million, a 57 percent increase from the previous year.

The company said profits were $103.9 million, an 89 percent increase over 2002. Neeleman said the airline has about $600million cash on hand. He said he has the right staff and employees to handle expansion. If there's anything to worry about, Neeleman said, it's the competition.

"You worry about irrational competitors, the competitors who will fly anywhere, thinking they can make money," he said. But Neeleman concedes such a course of action is highly likely and something JetBlue will have to face. "You've got to make money to be around," he said
 
CIO:

With what AA employees gave back and with what's coming, no doubt AA will survive. We may be working for peanuts and no pension, but AA will make sure they survive. As will Jim Little!
 
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Hopeful, sounds like you have given up already? Sure glad you are not representing anyone.
 
Checking it Out said:
Hopeful, sounds like you have given up already? Sure glad you are not representing anyone.
The only person who has given up is jim little. He is the one who gave up by accepting the concessions after promising a full revote. He gave up everything with no snap backs.

What's the status of your appointed leader's shared sacrifice accounting letter to AA?
 
Ken MacTiernan said:
The only person who has given up is jim little. He is the one who gave up by accepting the concessions after promising a full revote. He gave up everything with no snap backs.
No the only person who has given up is you...! When are you going to "suck it up" and quite crying about the revote thing? You know after the revote thing I was as pissed off as you. But as things have progressed in this industry it is obvious that Jim Little, saved our butt's...! I read the letter that Jim Little took the time out of his busy life to focus on "you"...! Your questions Ken, and yet you still will not accept the truth....! :blink:

-------------------------------
AMFA: The YUGO of the labor movement
Where bargaining means YOU GO....!
 
HSS

Your post above is typical of TWU supporter logic, or lack there of. We all knew that we needed to take concessions; however, the problem is the formula employed on us. Without going into details of how bad it was for AMTs at AA, there are still too many faults with the whole thing, and how its was brought about. In a nutshell, we got corn-holed yet again. 20 years of nothing but excuses and concessions. We keep hoping things are going to get better, "we will get them next time" time, time, time. We are tired of the the same ole, same ole - we get from the TWU. We all realize that AMFA is not perfect; however, it's a lot closer for AMTs than the TWU is. The TWU uses the AMTs for leverage. They don't care about the wages and benefits of the members as an individuals. The TWU cares about the numbers. Who cares if AMTs took huge pay cuts, we will guilt them into accepting what was taken from them. We don't like the forced charitable donation imposed courtesy of the TWU commies!
 
High Speed Steel said:
No the only person who has given up is you...! When are you going to "suck it up" and quite crying about the revote thing? You know after the revote thing I was as pissed off as you. But as things have progressed in this industry it is obvious that Jim Little, saved our butt's...! I read the letter that Jim Little took the time out of his busy life to focus on "you"...! Your questions Ken, and yet you still will not accept the truth....! :blink:

-------------------------------
AMFA: The YUGO of the labor movement
Where bargaining means YOU GO....!
Where have I given up? little LIED to us. PERIOD! So, you enjoy having a proven liar who is not accountable to the membership who pay his salary?

You are correct that I am pissed off. But unlike you I do not "suck up" anything. I will fight for what I believe is right. The twu is not one of those things I believe in. Is it obvious that little did the right thing? Have you looked at Eagle's growth lately? Where is management's shared sacrifice? Oh, that's right, your appointed leader wrote a letter demanding to see the shared sacrifice. Still waiting.

As for little's letter to me it was pure spin. Typical of twu leadership.

How about the twu's inflated eligibility list to the NMB? The twu is AGAINST democracy and accountability.
 
Vortilon said:
HSS

Your post above is typical of TWU supporter logic, or lack there of. We all knew that we needed to take concessions; however, the problem is the formula employed on us. Without going into details of how bad it was for AMTs at AA, there are still too many faults with the whole thing, and how its was brought about. In a nutshell, we got corn-holed yet again. 20 years of nothing but excuses and concessions. We keep hoping things are going to get better, "we will get them next time" time, time, time. We are tired of the the same ole, same ole - we get from the TWU. We all realize that AMFA is not perfect; however, it's a lot closer for AMTs than the TWU is. The TWU uses the AMTs for leverage. They don't care about the wages and benefits of the members as an individuals. The TWU cares about the numbers. Who cares if AMTs took huge pay cuts, we will guilt them into accepting what was taken from them. We don't like the forced charitable donation imposed courtesy of the TWU commies!
Green dude,

I agree that the formula imposed upon us was a bitter pill to swallow, but I believe we made the right decision. Everything happened so fast, and to this day I believe under Carty's administration that there would have been a more drastic move by the company if we had gone into bankruptcy! I can remeber the threat of the CESTA group that was formed to try the passing of Baseball style arbitration. Mr. Carty was one who was said to have served on that committee which was trying for its passage. If we had entered bankruptcy, I believe it would have given the momentum needed for its passage. Which would have impacted the way we negotiate our contracts drastically.

----------------------------------
AMFA: The YUGO of the labor movement
Where bargaining means YOU GO....!
 
Checking it Out said:
Hopeful, sounds like you have given up already? Sure glad you are not representing anyone.
And what inspires hope with the TWU? Look at all they have already given away over the last twenty years without ever uttering a harsh word to the company.
 
Checking it Out said:
Hopeful, sounds like you have given up already? Sure glad you are not representing anyone.
And what would you call the two tier wage scale system. Sounds like the TWU gave up a long time ago, only it comes with every contract when the TWU gives the company the concessions it demands. The TWU needs to rid itself of the OSM classification. However the core TWU supporters in TUL believe that those duties determined by the company to belong to the OSM classification do not deserve to be in the same class as the mechanics. I was approached by a TWU supporter and asked if the Battery Shop technicians should be paid as much for what they do as the mechanics that work on the aircraft. I said, "Probably Not, but that does not mean we have to give in to whatever the company wants."

You speak of giving up, yet you as a TWU supporter give more up at every contract. This has flowed over to the rest of the industry. Yes the TWU is an industry leader, but the membership is beginning to wonder which way?
 
You speak of giving up, yet you as a TWU supporter give more up at every contract. This has flowed over to the rest of the industry. Yes the TWU is an industry leader, but the membership is beginning to wonder which way?

Is that the same flow that AMFA bled to our industry through their continuing outsourcing?

TWU FACT: AA is the ONLY airline that continues to do ALL MAJOR O/H inhouse.

Why isn't AMFA following the lead we give them?
 
PRINCESS KIDAGAKASH said:
Why would other Airline Mechanics want to work for $9.00/hr, like AA?
Ohhhh I don't know Princess...ya think because it would beat the hell out of unemployment and no benefits? Ask your UAL and NWA princesses.

And who works for $9/hr @ AA now?
 

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