Seats $$$$$$$$$$$$

Hopeful

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Dec 21, 2002
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AP
American to Revamp Business-Class on Jets
Monday July 17, 12:44 am ET
By David Koenig, AP Business Writer
American Airlines to Revamp the Business-Class Sections on Its Long-Haul Jets


FORT WORTH, Texas (AP) -- American Airlines is revamping the business-class sections on its long-haul jets, adding lie-flat seats and individual entertainment centers to better compete with carriers that already offer similar creature comforts.
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The makeover is complete on one plane used mostly on trans-Atlantic flights, and American plans to retrofit business cabins in its Boeing 767-300 and Boeing 777 aircraft over the next year or so.

"We started thinking about this in 2000," says Jim Hadden, American's manager of cabin design. "We knew we were behind."

American's plans to upgrade its international business cabins were delayed by 9/11 and a near-bankruptcy in 2003. The airline, a unit of AMR Corp., plans to announce the new program at an industry event this week.

Hadden claims American's new seat offers a combination of flatness, width and adjustments that can't be matched by other carriers.

The seats are 20 inches wide -- 23 inches, if you fold down the armrests -- compared to 18 1/2 inches in the old seats. They recline to a 9-degree angle from the horizontal, while the old ones only go to 60 degrees. The seats also slide forward 10 inches, if passengers see some advantage in doing so.

Each seat has two tray tables, which can be pushed together to make a larger work surface. The entertainment systems include audio and video on demand, and a 10.6-inch screen.

The new seat is already causing a bit of a buzz on Internet sites devoted to frequent travelers. More than 600 comments have been posted on FlyerTalk, according to editor Randy Petersen.

Petersen said Asian carriers "still have a lock on the best creature comforts for business class," and among U.S. carriers, he favors Continental, even though its seat doesn't truly lie flat for snoozing.

Kevin Mitchell, who runs a group that advocates for corporate travelers, said a pleasant environment makes a big difference, especially if airlines have similar fares and schedules.

"AA must do what it is doing, especially as more U.S. airlines shift capacity to long-haul international services," Mitchell said. "The battles are going to get fierce."

American won't say how much it is spending on the makeover. The seats, made in Fort Worth by a unit of Germany's Recaro Aircraft Seating Inc., cost $50,000 a pair for the Boeing 767-300. By comparison, a bench of three coach seats costs about $7,000.

With American planning to retrofit all 58 of its 767-300s, which each have 30 business seats, that's more than $43 million -- and doesn't include new overhead bins, sidewall panels and closets that are also part of the makeover.

Officials said they don't have seat prices yet for their 46 Boeing 777s, which will get new business cabins beginning next year.
 
There was just a blurb on Jetnet telling everyone to watch CNBC this evening because some IDF f/a would be demonstrating the seat at some travel show and Peter Greenberg, the Today's show Travel "expert", would be covering the demo and reporting on it.

I wonder if the f/a or Greenberg will demonstrate that if you wear any shoe larger than a size two, you risk a broken ankle if you should extend the footrest up under the seat in front of you and then try to turn over in your sleep. :shock:

BTW, Greenberg is the one that all f/as have to thank for saying on TV (CNN, I think) a few years ago that "if you bring big bills on the plane you will get free drinks in coach because the f/as never have change." :down:
 
I'm afraid that AA is wasting $100 - $200 million plus on this endeavour. Instead of going with something truly worth paying more (like BA's flat seats), it's doing it on the cheap, again. :down:
 
I'm afraid that AA is wasting $100 - $200 million plus on this endeavour. Instead of going with something truly worth paying more (like BA's flat seats), it's doing it on the cheap, again. :down:

Actually, the people on Flyertalk that have actually flown on them seem to like them. I would suspect that the business class cabin just didn't have enough room to fit flat seats without removing a row of seats.
 
I'm afraid that AA is wasting $100 - $200 million plus on this endeavour. Instead of going with something truly worth paying more (like BA's flat seats), it's doing it on the cheap, again. :down:

I'm curious to know if you have actually sat in the seat? I have and I have to tell you it is quite nice.
 
I'm curious to know if you have actually sat in the seat? I have and I have to tell you it is quite nice.

Although I have not seen the seat, the feedback from f/a's that I have talked to seem to like it and say the pax love it.
 
The last 20 dog and pony shoes stated very clearly that the business traveler is no longer willing to pay for that seat.

Has something changed that I missed? Or is this another clueless business decision from the clueless management.

Sounds like another blunder that will come out of the employee's pockets :down:
 
Actually, the people on Flyertalk that have actually flown on them seem to like them. I would suspect that the business class cabin just didn't have enough room to fit flat seats without removing a row of seats.

747 posts on the Flyertalk thread so far and all of two Flyertalkers have sat in them. Both gave generally favorable reviews. Didn't have enough room to fit flat seats? Then remove that row (or two rows of coach, since a paid J fare or two would more than pay for the removed coach seats).

I'm curious to know if you have actually sat in the seat? I have and I have to tell you it is quite nice.

Yes, I have. But not for an entire flight yet. I'm certain many will say "it is quite nice," but to me it's another half-assed solution. And that will be two in a row for AA. The wooly mammoth seats were comfortable. Their blue slimline replacements were problem-plagued and not so comfortable. These are quite nice, but just wait til UA rolls out its AA Biz-Killer seats.

I'm sorry if any of the AA-management types who post here think these are the greatest thing since sliced bread (maybe some of you are even cheerleaders/designers of these new seats) but I'm disappointed in them.

Yes, AA management makes mistakes. And IMO, these seats are an excellent example.
 
The last 20 dog and pony shoes stated very clearly that the business traveler is no longer willing to pay for that seat.

Has something changed that I missed? Or is this another clueless business decision from the clueless management.

Sounds like another blunder that will come out of the employee's pockets :down:


Perhaps you should actually listen to the D&P shows. Most distinguish between domestic and international yields.

Yes, AA management makes mistakes. And IMO, these seats are an excellent example.

You have absolutely no rational/logical reason that can be substanitiated with economical fact for thinking that these seats are a mistake. None.
 
Perhaps you should actually listen to the D&P shows. Most distinguish between domestic and international yields.
You have absolutely no rational/logical reason that can be substanitiated with economical fact for thinking that these seats are a mistake. None.
I'd say at 50K a pair, it's a large by huge mistake. Spending a $100 million on these overpriced recliners is about as retarded as cAArty's "More room thoughout Coach" debacle. I guess more concessions will soon be in order when these seats don't make the return of investment.
 
$50K a pair vs. what? The current seats suck when compared to what BA has, not to mention the fact that they're old and needed to be replaced with something anyways.

I'm cautiously pessimistic. I've tried the fully flat on other carriers, and it's nice, especially when you need to hit the ground running on arrival. Whether or not the almost fully flat is close enough is yet to be seen, but a couple of milk crates with a sleeping bag on top of them would be an improvement over the current seat...
 
$50K a pair vs. what? The current seats suck when compared to what BA has, not to mention the fact that they're old and needed to be replaced with something anyways.

I'm cautiously pessimistic. I've tried the fully flat on other carriers, and it's nice, especially when you need to hit the ground running on arrival. Whether or not the almost fully flat is close enough is yet to be seen, but a couple of milk crates with a sleeping bag on top of them would be an improvement over the current seat...

I agree. AA is years behind the other carriers with our Biz class product. AA is losing lots of Biz pax to other carriers because we currently have a sub-standard product.
 
I agree. AA is years behind the other carriers with our Biz class product. AA is losing lots of Biz pax to other carriers because we currently have a sub-standard product.

I completely agree with you.

Problem is, I don't think these silly seats are the solution. My prediction is that it gets even harder for AA to sell J once these are installed. And that's what pisses me off. Another half-assed effort to attract the high yield customers instead of spending what it takes to do the job right the first time. The current seats are miserable, and represented a huge missed opportunity in 1998-99 when they were purchased. Now, in a feeble attempt to rectify that mistake, these gizmo-laden monstrosities are someone's idea of the ideal seat.

Like I said before, just wait til UA rolls out its "Once you fly in our J seats, you'll never pay for J on AA again" seats.
 
$50K a pair vs. what? The current seats suck when compared to what BA has, not to mention the fact that they're old and needed to be replaced with something anyways.

I'm cautiously pessimistic. I've tried the fully flat on other carriers, and it's nice, especially when you need to hit the ground running on arrival. Whether or not the almost fully flat is close enough is yet to be seen, but a couple of milk crates with a sleeping bag on top of them would be an improvement over the current seat...
I agree they needed to be replaced long ago, but $50k for more Recaro junk? After buying the flimsy and absolutely horrible coach and business class seats from Recaro, you would think management would learn, I guess not. I have heard the rumor the AA management braintrusts buying the seats are modifying Recaros design, at least that's what the rumor going around was. Seems plausable to me. Recaro makes some damn nice automotive racing seats, but something happens to the aircraft design, they are JUNK.

It will be intresting to see how many are on the FMR's after a year when they are all broke. Hey, its only a $100 million or so. :rolleyes:
 
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