Question Re Moving Planes From Term 5 To 3 @ Ord

[AgMedallion]

I arrived at ORD's Term 5 (Int'l Arrivals) on AA the other day and was curious as to how AA gets those planes over to Term 3 for departure on their next flight. Tugs pushing/pulling them the whole way or do mechanics who are qualified to taxi those 777s start the engines up and do it that way? I'd assume pilots performing that task would be very cost prohibitive and thus it's never done that way. Btw, I'm a loyal AA customer (Exec Plat) and think AA employees almost always do a great job. Keep up the good work!

 

[eolesen]

AMT's used to taxi the aircraft under its own power. I'll assume it's still that way today.

It's been a few years since I worked at ORD, but I seem to recall that the City prohibits gate to gate tows, and discourages on-taxiway towing unless the engines are inoperable and it is being towed to the hangar.

 

[FWAAA]

At LAX, prior to the refurbishment of T-4, AA used to tow the LHR-bound 777 from T-5 to T-4, but that distance (from about gate 58 to gate 48) was only a few hundred feet.

 

[Bob Owens]

I arrived at ORD's Term 5 (Int'l Arrivals) on AA the other day and was curious as to how AA gets those planes over to Term 3 for departure on their next flight. Tugs pushing/pulling them the whole way or do mechanics who are qualified to taxi those 777s start the engines up and do it that way? I'd assume pilots performing that task would be very cost prohibitive and thus it's never done that way. Btw, I'm a loyal AA customer (Exec Plat) and think AA employees almost always do a great job. Keep up the good work!

[post="256668"][/post]​

They probably taxi them if they have to go any distance on the taxiway. At JFK maintenance usually does around 30 Taxi moves a day. On day shift I typically taxi 5 aircraft a day from the hangar to the gate or vice-versa. We could go from a MD-80, to a 767 to a 757 to a 777 to and A-300 all in the same day. At JFK management requires that everyone taxi at least 2 different types of aircraft.

 

[777GUY]

I would have thought it would be more cost effective to tow the aircraft to the gate instead of taxiing it. Lets face it, the ground crew are already connected up to the aircraft to push it back from the stand that it is on, so why not carry on to the departure gate. Unless of course it was a very long tow over maybe several active runways, which would obviously compromise safety and be time consuming.

Surely it would be cheaper to burn a few gallons of diesel and pay for the ground crews O/T rather than burn several hundred pounds of Jet A1 and also put extra cycles on the aircraft engines.

 

[eolesen]

Doesn't really matter if it is cost effective or not when the airport doesn't permit it. Towing an aircraft is also a lot slower than taxiing under power.

 

[AMFAMAN]

Towing an aircraft is also a lot slower than taxiing under power.

[post="256841"][/post]​

Not when you have to wait 30 minutes for a park crew or an hour to be pushed off the gate. :down: :down:

 

[Bob Owens]

Not when you have to wait 30 minutes for a park crew or an hour to be pushed off the gate.  :down:  :down:

[post="256843"][/post]​

True. Last week I brought an airplane to the gate and after 30 minutes waiting, both engines running, I shut the engines down so the other guy could go out the E&E and go home. The minute I shut them down a ramp supervisor pulls up and throws his hands in the air and asks me what I'm doing. Why he didnt do anything for the 30 minutes prior to that I do not know. 600lbs of fuel were burned during the wait, or around 80 gallons of fuel. Shortly afterwards they finally showed up, got a tractor and towed me the rest of the way.

Here is one of the problems with having fleet do parking. Especially with maintenance moves. On paper it saves money, pay a guy $20/hr instead of $30. But in practice what happens is you spend the extra money because there is no coordination between departments who could care less about how the other departments manpower is used up.

For instance Ramp will call maintenance and say that gates 6, 10, 46 and 49 are ready to go and they need mechanics out there to take them either to the hangar or a hardstand. THe gates are needed for inbound trips. Maintenance will send out eight mechanics at $30/hr and the mechanics will then sit and wait anywhere from 1 to 2 hours waiting for the pushback crew so they can make the 2 to 10 minute trip to wherever they are putting the aircraft. These eight mechanics are half the afternoon crew which only leaves eight mechanics to handle any gate calls and the ETOPS checks and cards. In the meantime we hear inbound flights calling, complaining after a 7 hour trip that they have been waiting for 30 minutes for a gate. They are waiting for the gates that we are sitting on waiting for a pushback crew.

So now you have 8 mechanics at $30/hr, along with the crew of four aircraft at anywhere from $50/hr to $200/hr waiting, APUs and engines running burning thousands of gallons of fuel, all waiting because the company doesnt have enough of the $20/hr guys to do the work.

The eight mechanics would be better utilized pushing back their own aircraft, with the same eight guys you could have two crews taxiing and four guys pushing out the aircraft .

They could move all four aircraft off the gate in an hour. Add four more mechanics with mechanics doing their own pushbacks and you could move all four off the gate in ten minutes. Plus have the extra cushion to handle gate calls and checks.

The present system uses anywhere from 8 to 16 mechanic manhours to move four aircraft off the gate, and it also adds eight to 16 hours for those in the cockpit, along with the six or more flight attendandants and the 1200 gallons of fuel per aircraft per hour burned. Lets also not forget the fustration that our passengers feel when they finally land and have to sit on the plane for an extended period of time.

So you can see how in theory getting Fleet to push back the aircraft may save money, pay a guy $20.hr instead of $30, but in practice what happens is it costs the company a whole lot more. While the answer may appear simple;Hire more $20hr guys, its not, because they dont hire $20 hr guys, they hire them at $8 hr and they dont get to $20 until 12 years later. Only a handful of Fleet guys are ever trained to do pushbacks whereas every mechanic is qualified. Most dont wait around, they quit, which means high turnover, which means security gaps. Last summer we heard that crews would simply walk off the job and go to the beach because it was a nice day. Do you really want to try and pressure these $8hr guys who were hired to throw bags, who have no long term plans to stay, into handling your multimillion dollar aircraft?

The fact is that in stations where you have maintenance you could turn R&D over to them at very little cost, and in fact end up saving money because of things like I just said that do not get factored into the bean counters equations. How much is jet fuel now? $1,50/gal? So figure 1200lbs of fuel not burnt would pay the mechanic salary for the entire day plus you could use him for gate calls and checks. You could even contract in more work from other airlines and make a profit.

Of course this is all dependant on having a mechanic workforce with a high morale, and since the company took away our pay and benifits, morale is not high, so whether or not what could work would work is another story. Mechanics are not going to be too receptive to "Hey now that we are paying you less, reduced headcount, increased your workload, we are now going to add even more work. We cut your pay by $20,000 a year but if you work hard enough and do all this extra work you can get back as much a $150/year in AIP!".

 

[DFWCC]

At DFW We always had to wait 45 to 50 min for a mechanic to arrive for a taxi to the hanger. All regular line crews in DFW are trained for puh operations. Quite often aircraft are pushed out to the pads (aircraft staging area) and parked to await a mechnic or for overnite. there are even some clerks who are qualified to taxi.

 

[Bob Owens]

At DFW We always had to wait 45 to 50 min for a mechanic to arrive for a taxi to the hanger. All regular line crews in DFW are trained for puh operations. Quite often aircraft are pushed out to the pads (aircraft staging area) and parked to await a mechnic or for overnite. there are even some clerks who are qualified to taxi.

[post="256900"][/post]​

Well like I said, departments dont care how the others manpower is used up.

By the way do you mean taxi or ride brakes?

 

[DFWCC]

Well like I said, departments dont care how the others manpower is used up.

By the way do you mean taxi or ride brakes?

[post="257062"][/post]​

Bob your right, I stand corrected. Brake Rider it should be.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

At DFW We always had to wait 45 to 50 min for a mechanic to arrive for a taxi to the hanger. All regular line crews in DFW are trained for puh operations. Quite often aircraft are pushed out to the pads (aircraft staging area) and parked to await a mechnic or for overnite. there are even some clerks who are qualified to taxi.

[post="256900"][/post]​

Each station is a bit different from another. Especially larger ones. In SAN we seem to go in cycles. With 8 RON a/c we might have one or two a/c "piggy-backed" between two gates. (This depends on whether or not an AE RJ is using an AA gate.) Our Ramp crew will come in and ask for a AMT to ride brakes. Sometimes we go out and sit for 20 minutes before they show. Other times they are already hooked up and ready to go. But since the company has cut back in Fleet Service and they are short handed too, each day is different. When we finally arrive at the assigned gate most times the AMT has to wait for a gate agent to move the jet bridge up to the a/c so the AMT can get off. But after the a/c left the gate that the AMT is taxiing to the agent leaves for their next flight. The agents are even more short handed than the rest of us. The ops agent most of the times has to come out and move the jet bridge, which leaves ops unmanned.

When we have an a/c parked at the remote parking, ( which is across the field under the tower), AMTs do it all. We drive over to the tower, remove the stairs and generators that were used by the overnight contract cleaners and AMTs the night before. We will be the start and guide men so the a/c can taxi to the gate.

If AMTs were given back R & D duties I believe a smoother operation would occur.

 

[Hopeful]

At DFW We always had to wait 45 to 50 min for a mechanic to arrive for a taxi to the hanger. All regular line crews in DFW are trained for puh operations. Quite often aircraft are pushed out to the pads (aircraft staging area) and parked to await a mechnic or for overnite. there are even some clerks who are qualified to taxi.

[post="256900"][/post]​

Clerks qualified to taxi?????????????????????????

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

The eight mechanics would be better utilized pushing back their own aircraft, with the same eight guys you could have two crews taxiing and four guys pushing out the aircraft .

They could move all four aircraft off the gate in an hour. Add four more mechanics with mechanics doing their own pushbacks and you could move all four off the gate in ten minutes. Plus have the extra cushion to handle gate calls and checks.

We fought tooth and nail but finally got the taxi tow operation in MIA.
We have 4 crews 1 on days 1 on nights and 2 in the afternoon. 5 guys per crew.
We do it all pushback, taxi, and park them ourselves. Gate to the hanger hanger to the gate. We can move them twice as fast as the rampers because we are under power and the Tower prefers it that way. Especially when the tower is busy the last thing they want to hear is an aircraft under tow too or from the gate. It increased our head count and we are doing a better job than the rampers so it was an even trade for AA. and we get that 150 AIP

get back as much a $150/year in AIP!".

 

[aafsc]

I am a ramper and when I used to work at a line station, I (along with other rampers) rode the brakes. We did not have AA maintanence at this city but they came in and trained us. But at the larger cities, where we do have AA maintanence, the AMTs ride the brakes and I think it is better that they do it. When I was at EAL, the mechanics did the push outs for the flight departures. We had the plane loaded on time or early but we would almost always have to wait 10 to 15 minutes for the mechanics to come out to push and thus took a lot of delays.