Mda/republic Issues

[Viper16]

There have been a number of posts in other threads regarding what the expectations of the MDA and Republic pilots are concerning the transfer of the 170s. I don’t believe everyone is getting the full story and I thought I could shed some light on the issue. There have been some comments about demands by ALPA for date of hire and shoving something down the throats of the Republic pilots. No demands have been made and actually ALPA had attempted to start a dialog to resolve this issue early on. As someone who has been involved in this process from the beginning I’d like to give a bit of history behind the story.

Shortly after the transaction was announced, ALPA formed a MDA working group to look at the issue and see what the best possible solution would be. This group decided that if a meeting could be set up with Republic management, the IBT and CHQ pilot leadership maybe we could all come to an agreement that was agreeable to everyone involved. On April 13, ALPA sent a letter to USAirways management outlining what was felt would be an acceptable solution to their concerns over the transaction. This was done in an attempt to settle the issues prior to the transfer of aircraft and make sure there was time available to work through any possible problems. It was suggested that this process be completed by 31 May. This letter did not demand a DOH solution but asked for seniority integration into the CHQ list based on our position on the USAirways list and a slotted bidding ratio system. It also asked for 100% of the jobs associated with the 28 aircraft. This letter allowed for a window to sit down with the interested parties and work out a solution.

Shortly after this letter was sent to US management a copy was sent to Brian Bedford, CEO of Republic, Gene Sowell of the IBT and Gordon Moore CHQ pilot leader. No response was ever obtained from those parties. Telephone contact with Gene Sowell confirmed his receipt of the letter but it appeared he was not interested in pursuing any further contact. Gene was reminded of the help he requested and received from ALPA during the attempt by CHQ to start Republic as a non union airline a couple years ago and it is disappointing to hear that he didn’t seem interested in working with the same people who helped him in the past. After repeated attempts to contact Gordon Moore, Bill Pollock, MEC Chairman finally had a conversation with him. Capt Moore said he was too busy with the Shuttle America issues to talk to us.

Since it appeared that a workable solution could not be obtained in a reasonable timeframe, ALPA decided to file a grievance over the issue. The grievance was over the interpretation of the transaction as an ‘aircraft sale event’ or a ‘change of control/MDA affiliate event’. Depending on how the ruling comes out makes a huge difference to the MDA pilots and also the CHQ/REP pilots.

After the grievance was filed, ALPA was contacted by the IBT and a short discussion ensued. The IBT was about to send out a modification to the J4J agreement for ratification and asked for some ideas from ALPA over how to solve some of the outstanding issues. ALPA presented a ‘proposal’ – not a demand – for a bidding rights provision that would allow MDA pilots to be slotted among Republic pilots for bidding purposes only. This would not affect a pilot’s position on the seniority list – just be used for bidding purposes for the US 170 flying. This proposal was rejected by the IBT within hours.

So it appears that the IBT has not been willing to work with ALPA to resolve differences. I’m not sure if they have communicated this information to their members but these are the facts in the case. Wouldn’t it be wise for the IBT to at least sit down and hear what ALPA concerns are? Let’s look at the grievance – and what happens to each party. If the ruling goes in ALPA’s favor the IBT and CHQ pilots stand to lose a lot. All the jobs would belong to the MDA pilots, they would retain their seniority, keep their contract and ALPA would remain as their representational body. If the ruling goes to the company the MDA pilots are no worse off than what is planned for them today. So I guess my questions to the CHQ/REP pilots here are:

Wouldn’t you think the IBT would at least look at the possible downside to this and try to work out a deal?

Has any CHQ pilot asked what will happen if ALPA wins?

Has anyone asked why no attempt was made to work this out earlier?

Have you even been informed about the attempts by ALPA to reach a settlement?

If the ruling is in ALPA’s favor, what do you think the response would be to a request by the IBT to talk then?

 

[fatherabraham]

Viper16,

Howdy and welcome to board!

No dog in this fight but feel awful for MDA folks and will look for support oportunities with all potential negative revenue implications thought of before hand. They do not deserve to be represented badly by the dues they are required to pay to ALPA!

What does IBT stand for?

That being said, I have never heard or read a firm stance by ALPA showing support by all rank and file. I remember a day when one assumed fair representaion for all, now there is the perception of union officials protecting thier behinds at the cost of less senior folk below them and MDA.

Being anonimous, would you share your views and majority of MEC?

FA

 

[FL370]

I would be interested to heard how the slotted bidding would work. DOH, ratio, relative position?

I can tell you according to both IBT and RAH management, based on union and company updates, that neither feel there is any merit to the MDA/ALPA greivance. Maybe they decided that they would take the gamble.

 

[Light Years]

IBT stands fot International Brotherhood of Teamsters, which represents CHQ pilots and flight attendants as well as any other airline labor groups.

 

[Viper16]

"Being anonimous, would you share your views and majority of MEC?"

As I am not a member of the MEC I can't say what their views are however I know we have the full support of some of the MEC members and others give support when it seems like the thing to do. However if it came to sacrificing 300 MDA pilots for the benefit of the mainline I'm sure many on the MEC wouldn't think twice about it.

The MEC has acted in support of MDA many times with resolutions and such but not much else. I can say that many of the committees have supported us - especially the Grievance and Negotiating committees.

I believe the rank and file pilots generally support us but many are not very informed of our plight and probably don't worry much about us since it doesn't affect them much.

 

[Viper16]

"I would be interested to heard how the slotted bidding would work. DOH, ratio, relative position?"

The proposal that was presented is modeled after the one used for the J4J pilots at PSA. It would put the most senior REP pilot first, followed by the most senior MDA pilot and so on based on a ratio of the number of REP and MDA pilots involved. But since this was rejected by the IBT I wouldn't expect to see it resurface again.

"I can tell you according to both IBT and RAH management, based on union and company updates, that neither feel there is any merit to the MDA/ALPA greivance. Maybe they decided that they would take the gamble."

Have you ever read LOA 91 that governs this transaction? While nobody can guarantee what the arbitrator's ruling will be, I can guarantee that ALPA would not have spent 10s of thousands of dollars on this grievance if they felt there was no merit to it.

LOA 91 states " USAirways Group shall be deemed to 'Control' MDA if MDA is an internal operating division of US Airways Group Inc..." and futhermore it states " In the event MDA is no longer a division of USAirways Inc or under the control of US Airways Group Inc...and becomes an operating airline providing SJ service as USAirways express, such operating airline must comply with the provisions related to change of control..."

From this does it sound as if USAirways will still control MDA? Will MDA still be an internal operating division? I don't think so - how can you operate a division without aircraft, pilots, simulator, spare parts and a door trainer?

Does it sound as if this is a case without any merit? I would expect that comment from management but you would think that the IBT would look at it a little closer. It's easy for management to take this gamble - what do they have to lose. If it goes in ALPAs favor Bedford just looks at you guys and says - "Sorry my hands are tied - we have to do what the ruling says - oh and God Bless" As far as the IBT goes, if the ruling goes against the company you guys better make them pay dearly for their "gamble".

 

[Dan Sneddon]

I would like to respond to beginning of this thread with a view from this side of the Republic/MDA issue.

First of all you will notice I only post in full view and I do not care to post behind a screen name.

I have also been close to this issue since prior to May. In May, the IBT 747 representing the CHQ/REP pilots made an offer to ALPA. We spent almost 2 weeks trying to contact the MEC Chairman and other representatives in order to set up a meeting to discuss these same issues.

In late May a meeting occured between MEC Chairman Bill Pollock and 2 other representatives with IBT Counsel Gene Sowell, and EC Chairman Gordon Moore. The IBT offered first proposal with 100% of the jobs going to the MDA pilots for the aircraft coming over from MDA and that the J4J provisions of LOA 81,83,84,91, and 93 of the ALPA agreement and LOA 4 of the IBT Agreement shall apply with any other future growth aircraft. There were no MDA pilots at this meeting.

It is at this point of time ALPA countered with their seniority integration a la PSA. The CHQ Executive Counsel voted to not accept this proposal, as for the bastardization of our seniority. The IBT countered with an addition of Longevity protection, as we had to negotiate this with our company. At this point in time we were told "we will be sorry" by ALPA representatives.

The CHQ Exec. Co. followed the provisions of J4J while adding to the offer of 100% of the positions and longevity carryover. That is seat protection and pay protection. This was probably one of the most generous offers one airline acquiring the assets of another could offer.

Now, that being said. The greivance followed shortly thereafter. As to the outcome I will not speculate. It is afterward that I wish to address.

If ALPA succeeds on the greivance then per the IBT contract the parties will have to integrate the MDA pilots per Allegheny Mohawk LLPs. However, it would only happen with MDA pilots. MDA has 340ish pilots and CHQ/REP/S5 have close to 1300. The surviving Union would be the IBT per Allegheny-Mohawk. The integration would also only take into account MDA Longevity not USAirways Longevity.

If ALPA does not succeed then things will be status quo. E.G. J4J Provisions apply. 50% of the positions ( half Captains and half F/O's) will be awarded to APL/MDA/CEL pilots according to their prefernces. If those pilots choose to bypass this process completely then those positions will be awarded to REP/CHQ/S5 pilots.

This is what has happened on our end. IMHO we tried to work out something suitable to the MDA pilots. However, the MDA pilots were not represented at the table. We did offer 100% of the positions when we did not have to. We offered longevity when we did not have to. We feel we were slighted quite heavily similar to when we first met with ALPA prior to LOA 81.

I do not hold any ill will to any MDA pilot, and I will welcome them with open arms. They are welcome on my jumpseat and I wish them the best no matter the outcome of the greivance.

I have now been called a "scab" about 10 times. I am the former Strike Chairman and not really a favorite in Management's eye. I also was a negotiator on our current contract, and former EC Member. I am a stout Union supporter with many friends and family former USAirways pilots. I have discussed these issues with them many times. I have also discussed these issues with MDA pilots who have graciously given me a ride.

I understand that if I were in many MDA pilots positions I would be upset as well. I just hope the majority of the pilots look to see where to direct their anger.

I hope this works out for everyone. I just wanted to set the record from our side of the table.

Sincerely,

Dan

 

[fatherabraham]

Dan,

Welcome to board as well. Thanks for another viewpoint. Still fuzzy on this whole mess as it seems to be quite complicated.

I think your statement " However, the MDA pilots were not represented at the table " is what seems most absurd to me.


FA

 

[fr8tmastr]

Dan, with the number of pilots going on to Bluer skies, that 340 ish number will be substantially less, additionally there will be a large number of pilots who will not come over anyway, as sitting reserve in IND at pay levels to low to sustain a crash pad is not doable. My point is even under the best of circumstances you will not see any where near 300 pilots trying to get to Republic, and the ones that did come over would leave ASAP upon recall.

ALL OR NONE!!!

 

[SoldWholeSale]

Dan,

I suspect you are one of the few here who actually has facts. I have been MDA since the first day of its existance, and your story jives. The lack of any MDA representation, and the total lack of any MDA guidance on the part of the MEC is why there will very shortly be a suit filed against ALPA. The ALPA MEC Chairman has lied to the MDA pilots about many things, his meetings with the IBT are on that list with many other untruths.

One thing I think you missed is this: There is no MDA. MDA is a side letter much like US2 (MetroJet), and thus there is no MDA DOH. Part of the LOA was that the pilots be paid starting on first year pay under the AE contract. Longevity for both the furloughed mainline guys, and the former express pilots, was set by their group date of hire. Vacation, seniority, and F/O pay were set by group date of hire. Thus, given there is no MDA DOH, there only way for a pilot currently flying an Embraer 170 for USAirways to be merged is by his/her group date of hire. That still isn't a windfall, as that isn't allowed in a merger. The main things to remember is that it would most likely be a "dovetail" merger with some fences and DOH for puroses of pay and vacation.

I hope it all works out, I'd love have the first order of buiness be running ALPA off the property.....

Best regards,

SH


ALL OR NONE!!

 

[Viper16]

Dan,

I'll respond to some of your comments with the facts that I know and I'm still waiting for clarification on a few other issues that I was not present at.


"In late May a meeting occured between MEC Chairman Bill Pollock and 2 other representatives with IBT Counsel Gene Sowell, and EC Chairman Gordon Moore. The IBT offered first proposal with 100% of the jobs going to the MDA pilots for the aircraft coming over from MDA and that the J4J provisions of LOA 81,83,84,91, and 93 of the ALPA agreement and LOA 4 of the IBT Agreement shall apply with any other future growth aircraft. There were no MDA pilots at this meeting."

The only 100% job offer that I am aware of is one that said that the MDA pilots will have 100% of the jobs associated with the 25 aircraft coming over from MDA as long as USAirways would commit to placing an additional 25 E-170s into service and 100% of the jobs associated with those additional 25 would go to pilots on the CHQ list. So in essence it would still only be 50% of the jobs going to pilots from the USAirways system seniority list. Since US management was not willing to commit to those extra 25 jets it is a moot point anyway.

"It is at this point of time ALPA countered with their seniority integration a la PSA."

If you say the first meeting took place in late May (which I don't agree with but am waiting for confirmation of) then it was not at this meeting that the 'bidding rights proposal' was presented. I reviewed that proposal prior to it being sent to the IBT and I first saw it on 29 June.


"If ALPA succeeds on the greivance then per the IBT contract the parties will have to integrate the MDA pilots per Allegheny Mohawk LLPs. However, it would only happen with MDA pilots. MDA has 340ish pilots and CHQ/REP/S5 have close to 1300. The surviving Union would be the IBT per Allegheny-Mohawk. The integration would also only take into account MDA Longevity not USAirways Longevity."

If you read LOA 91, if ALPA wins the arbitration then ALPA retains representation for the former MDA pilots. If Republic would decide to merge the lists then I dispute that it would be with MDA date of hire. Everything on the MDA seniority roster is based on USAirways system seniority list and you cannot rearrange that list when merging the lists. If Republic decided to operate the MDA group as a separate division and not merge the lists that is allowed under LOA 91.

"If ALPA does not succeed then things will be status quo. E.G. J4J Provisions apply. 50% of the positions ( half Captains and half F/O's) will be awarded to APL/MDA/CEL pilots according to their prefernces. If those pilots choose to bypass this process completely then those positions will be awarded to REP/CHQ/S5 pilots."

I agree with that statement.