Logging >>> IFR TIME

[Needles Split]

Can you log IFR ACTUAL if you are not filed
IFR, but, you are operating in 24 hours of darkness, 2 crew, night VFR, and you''re in no mans land > in other words... you have no horizon or ground reference... the arctic. You have to fly via the instruments
in order to keep on top of things, I not talking bad weather, I''m talking no cloud below 20000, no precip,and vis >6 (on the ground).
Perhaps CTD could clarify.....

 

[Schooner69]

Needles Split: short answer is yes. At least in my definition: "flight without visual reference to the ground" is "on instruments" and as such is loggable.

 

[CTD]

I know the job you''re talking about, and no you can''t log IFR time there. You have to be filed, and that job is flown ''night VRF''. If you do not have the required night references for night VFR, you''re illegal to go.

 

[Bladestrike]

I''ve always had a question about that CTD. You are no doubt referring to

Minimum Visual Meteorological Conditions for VFR Flight in Uncontrolled Airspace
602.115 No person shall operate an aircraft in VFR flight within uncontrolled airspace unless

(a) the aircraft is operated with visual reference to the surface;

When operating VFR at night in the North, the aircraft and crews were required to be IFR capable, and visibility had to meet the limits for night VFR, but this was only possible if there was something to see. No, you did not have a decernable horizon, but if you turned on your landing light you''d see the ground.

To play it safe, I often filed (our SOP''s now require us to treat the flight as IFR), but I know the majority of guys wouldn''t. When I quered TC they didn''t seem overly concerned with how things were being done. The big concern was the different MOCA''s in the winter for icing concerns, 2000 and 10 IFR, but only 1000 and 3 for night VFR.

As far as logging the time, the response I got was if you''re flying on the instruments, its IFR time, filed or not. There seems to be three very different threads of thought on this, and I even went to the airline forum to see if there was a standard but there was alot of diversion there as well.

One extreme was to log everything. If you''re filed it doesn''t matter if its CAVU, you''re navigating by your instruments so log IFR. The other end of the spectrum only logs actual "in-cloud" time. Most came in the middle, which is what I do, if I am relying on my ADI to get me home, I log IFR, whether its night and there''s no horizon, or if I break out on top and have to shoot an approach on the other end, or of course, if I''m in the soup the entire time.

 

[reddog]

I have a question for CTD.

Where I am in the world we are operationing locally registered aircraft so there are no CARs to look this up in and it''s been a long time since I did the Arctic night (VFR?) slinging thing.

Question: Is there a CARs requirement to "file" for an IFR flight in uncontrolled airspace in the Arctic, say between Lougheed and King Christian Islands?

 

[Bruised Armpit]

I agree with both CTD and Bladestrike on this one....if you cannot maintain ground reference from adequate terrestrial, extra-terrestrial, celestial, or whatever kind of lighting, you are not VFR, and the flight is illegal flown as VFR.
Having said that...I would log it as actual IFR if I happened to be in that situation.

You are IFR after all!
It would sure look funny if you were audited...do they do that?

 

[RDM]

Blades is right, this has been ongoing for sometime with no "clear answer" ever coming straight from the regulatory body at transport.

Flying outa YYT we are "filed" EVER trip IFR, granted we do spend ALOT of time in the goo but it is also done for ease of operation. When I first started I got a dozen different answers on how to log the time and when I asked some buddies in TC I got a few more opionions.

So right or wrong here is what some of us do, QUESS, we quess at the end of the day how much time we were in the goo. On a clear day we but 0 time IMC, maraginal days half the air time, and a normal day on the grand banks all the air time goes IMC.

As for night, sorry but anytime over the north atlantic in the dark is on instruments and is logged as such. Coming of the deck at night as the flying pilot by using visual references is going to get you one big cuff up side the head from the guy next to you believe me.

...........who knows?

 

[Bladestrike]

RedDog, I think this is what you are looking for;

Requirement to File a Flight Plan or a Flight Itinerary
602.73 (1) Subject to subsection (3), no pilot-in-command shall operate an aircraft in IFR flight unless an IFR flight plan has been filed.

(2) No pilot-in-command shall operate an aircraft in VFR flight unless a VFR flight plan or a VFR flight itinerary has been filed, except where the flight is conducted within 25 nautical miles of the departure aerodrome.

(3) A pilot-in-command may file an IFR flight itinerary instead of an IFR flight plan where

(a) the flight is conducted in part or in whole outside controlled airspace; or

(B) facilities are inadequate to permit the communication of flight plan information to an air traffic control unit, a flight service station or a community aerodrome radio station.

(4) Notwithstanding anything in this Division, no pilot-in-command shall, unless a flight plan has been filed, operate an aircraft between Canada and a foreign state.

 

[downwash]

Unless things have changed drastically, it seems the intent has always been to log both flight in IMC AND flight under IFR as ''Instrument.'' As noted, above, the regs outline what''s IFR, so the IMC part becomes moot. Anyone querying your resume MAY want to know how much IMC time you have, but it''s the IFR time that counts, whether in VMC or IMC - you''re navigating the aircraft on instruments no matter what you can see outside (and more IS better isn''t it?).

 

[reddog]

Bladestrike. That would be it. Thanks for finding it for me.

Para. 3 would cover Arctic operations and also answer the original question as to whether you can log IMC/actual time even though you have not "filed" IFR.

 

[CTD]

I fail to see the link - this clause talks about filing a flight plan vs. an itinerary. What about approach facilities? Alternates? This contract is bid, awarded, and is supposed to be operated under night VFR.

I have flown that job, and I''ve flown it in December so I know exactly how much VFR there is there. However, I never logged any IFR time, only night VFR. We had no alternates in Baffin or further west. In Labrador we would sometimes file in the S61 coming back to YYR from the coast, because we had a no-alternate approval there. We''d punch into it in uncontrolled airspace and file when we could raise someone on the box.

 

[Bladestrike]

I think we have come around to agreeing with your first post CTD.

As opposed to actual IFR with alternates and approaches, I think the topic is night VFR in VFR weather conditions with VFR on both ends but having inadequate celestial or terestial illumination, requireing your ADI to keep the right side up. I've found most people consider themselves VFR because if you turn on your landing light, you have all the reference you need, but consider logging the enroute portion as IFR as you are maintaining your straight and level flight with your instruments.

The CARs are quite clear though, you do need to be filed IFR (plan/itinerary, with IFR reserve fuel but hopefully you have the OC exemption for no alternate IFR) if you don't have the required reference. I don't know about the job you're referring too, but I know the ambulance guys often preferred the night VFR MOCA's in the winter months as you can fly much lower and still stay out of cloud. When I queried certain TC guys, they didn't seem overly concerned, but by the CARs, I'd have to agree with you that if you aren't IFR, you shouldn't be logging it as such because you shouldn't be using (or require) your ADI. As I mentioned, our SOP's now require us to treat such flights as IFR.

If the aircraft and crews aren't IFR certified, they certainly shouldn't be flogging around without visual reference in the first place.

Needles, whats the big deal, if you're in uncontrolled airspace, with just filing an IFR flight plan or itinerary as opposed to VFR? Do you not have the "No Alternate" OC exemption?

 

[Bruised Armpit]

Firstly, turning on your landing light to see the ground as your only means of reference does not fall under adequate celestial or terrestrial illumination.

The slinging is OK, even if you file IFR; (see CAR below)

As for logging it, if its filed as an IFR flight, be it in IMC or VMC, log it as IFR I say. More to it that gyro watching.

File IFR, fly at your minimums. If you are flying to communities they should provide the terrestrial illumination you require to drop below your MOCA, continuing your descent VFR. (I haven''t done this job so I am guessing)

TC may be wishy washy about this, they don''t seem to like getting involved and are happy to give operators enough rope to hang themselves, but, heaven forbid, if something should happen up there, the doo-doo with hit the rotating air mover and you will be boiled in oil by the investigators. I have seen it happen.(not actual doo-doo)
paraphrasing somebody elses previous post:
''ask yourself if it would stand up in court''

CAR''s 722.18
(7) Helicopter external load under IFR is subject to the following standards:

(a) the helicopter is certified as a Transport Category A Rotorcraft;

(B) the helicopter and external load combination is airworthiness approved for IFR;

© only flight crew members and persons essential during flight are carried;

(d) no persons are carried externally;

(e) flights are coordinated with the appropriate ATC unit and advised that the helicopter will be carrying an external load; and

(f) the air operator''s Company Operations Manual content includes operational restrictions and procedures.

 

[CTD]

There are a couple simple truths here, that are really not open to interpretation.

1. To fly night VFR, or any VFR, you must navigate and control the aircraft with reference to objects on the ground.
2. If there are no objects on the ground with which to navigate, or otherwise keep the aircraft upright, and you rely solely on instruments to eprform the flight, then you are no longer VFR, and must comply with IFR. This includes alternates, fuel reserves, crew and a/c qualifications, flight plans/itineraries etc.
3. IFR and IMC are two different things. We no longer log IMC time, like back in the Class 1 and 2 days, but we do log IFR time. And that can be done when filed, IMC or VMC.

If your flight requires the sole use of navigation and flight instruments to complete, then you cannot legally do it VFR.

 

[Bladestrike]

Sounds right CTD, but I was out puttering around in the goo last night with an old buddy of yours, S. Tucker, who tells me anything you say has to be wrong, and always will be....so I guess it can't be