good afternoon, all. i just finished an artical in Heli-ops about flame-outs during forest fire operations describing the fire triangle and how superheated air and smoke affect the operation of turbines. i have done some forestry work but most of it has been IA (with not much action) and flying the fire boss etc., not an awful lot of bucketing. my question as you have probably figured is how close can one safely get to the fire and smoke (without loosing reference of course) to avoid starving the engine of air with either superheated air or smoke. the other issue i was curious about is how do the elevated temperatures in close proximity to the fire itself affect the materials and components that make up our wonderful machines? do we even spend enough time that close to the fire line for the temperatures to really soak in and do any damage before having to go back for another load? any constructive comments would be greatly appreciated as we all know what time of year it is.
How Close Is Too Close?
- Thread starter shaggy
- Start date
Who the hell knows how close is too close. One thing I never do is go through any smoke going up from a descent size flame. As heat rises, the most intense heat will be directly above the flame, thus I try to approach, drop from the sides droping while in the turn away, in most small helicopters you are wasting time and money bucketing on any size flame that would be putting out the internal donkey fire. Work the flanks and let others get in close to the big heat if they want, is better left for large stuff(mother nature or mars bombers) to put out.
If you have your door off helps to judge if too close if doing recon or such, just remember to put the flame on the door off side.
sc
If you have your door off helps to judge if too close if doing recon or such, just remember to put the flame on the door off side.
sc
VERTICAL REF
Senior
- Mar 10, 2003
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shaggy,
If you can breath the turbine can breath, no problem. As a pilot and an engineer I see it physically impossible for smoke to flame out an engine. Cause elevated N1, Ng and EGT, TOT, ITT, MGT most definatley!
Some individuals have melted chin bubbles and blistered paint - just one more reason to be using a longline.
If you can breath the turbine can breath, no problem. As a pilot and an engineer I see it physically impossible for smoke to flame out an engine. Cause elevated N1, Ng and EGT, TOT, ITT, MGT most definatley!
Some individuals have melted chin bubbles and blistered paint - just one more reason to be using a longline.
VR;
I know you have this looong line obsession, will try not to dwell on lonnnnnngg, ha.
But the only melted parts I have seen are ones that were flying to close to the flame without worring about the load ie; driptorching. Being at the right height above the flame is the kicker as you know from being the engineer type that the hotest part of a flame when welding is above the flame a bit so being lower while beside the flame is sometimes safer than higher and more over the flame, so don't be lulled into thinking that higher is safe, oh by the way, go flames go.
on a short long line;
sc
or is it a long short line
I know you have this looong line obsession, will try not to dwell on lonnnnnngg, ha.
But the only melted parts I have seen are ones that were flying to close to the flame without worring about the load ie; driptorching. Being at the right height above the flame is the kicker as you know from being the engineer type that the hotest part of a flame when welding is above the flame a bit so being lower while beside the flame is sometimes safer than higher and more over the flame, so don't be lulled into thinking that higher is safe, oh by the way, go flames go.
on a short long line;
sc
or is it a long short line
Puddle Jumper
Advanced
- Mar 23, 2003
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Although I have little time working with helicopters on fires I have worked spotting them via fixed wing. Last year there was a small fire beside a railroad track. Come to think about it 204 B driver dropped crews off on the tracks at that fire. Anyway, due to me and my pilot wanting to be dead accurate on the location of the fire we decided to fly over it using the GPS to back up our location. Big Mistake! We were about 300 feet above the center of the fire and had one heck of a bumpy ride. Although the fire was small about .5 ha's it still was enough to make me and my pilot come to the conclusion that we should avoid flying directly over the fire. Lesson learned. 
VERTICAL REF
Senior
- Mar 10, 2003
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Skully,
You did'nt go on too loooonnngg at all.
You are exactly correct about the flame. Wise from the plumbing and welding I see.
The drip torch is probably the BEST example of what should be on a longline as far as I am concerned. Some will disagree, but don't knock it until you try it! :blink:
You did'nt go on too loooonnngg at all.
You are exactly correct about the flame. Wise from the plumbing and welding I see.
The drip torch is probably the BEST example of what should be on a longline as far as I am concerned. Some will disagree, but don't knock it until you try it! :blink:
VERTICAL REF
Senior
- Mar 10, 2003
- 311
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Skully,
Why would you not want a torch on a longline! You would be amazed at the tricks and technics you can do with it compared to being limited on the bellie! Much, much safer to fill and service and impossible to burn down or scorch up ye old helicopter! Just something about landing in the middle of a pile of surefire and jet b...makes me pucker!
The only thing I do not put on a line is the spray booms, hard to keep them flying straight!
Why would you not want a torch on a longline! You would be amazed at the tricks and technics you can do with it compared to being limited on the bellie! Much, much safer to fill and service and impossible to burn down or scorch up ye old helicopter!
Just something about landing in the middle of a pile of surefire and jet b...makes me pucker!The only thing I do not put on a line is the spray booms, hard to keep them flying straight!
407 Driver
Veteran
- Mar 10, 2003
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I've never tried torching on a line V-Ref, but it sounds like it may have it's merits. This "new-age logging practice of leaving full size seed trees and all those scruffy little re-gen in the block sure do cause some interesting moments when you have your head out the door at 25' looking at the torch nozzle and flame pattern/fuel loading on the ground. Hey, why not go onto the line, gets you away from hazards......plus as you say, a good 'liner can do some interesting tricks with the load !
When we start the spring burns, maybe I'll try.
If it doesn't work, I can always Longline bucket !
...go big or go home !......
When we start the spring burns, maybe I'll try.
If it doesn't work, I can always Longline bucket !
...go big or go home !......
VERTICAL REF
Senior
- Mar 10, 2003
- 311
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It all started with making staging safer. Get the torch 100' out in front of you where the mixers do not have there heads and paddles under the rotor system doing there thing. Because we have all been there where we start with 3 or 4 barrels then only end up using one! No never happens...
No one is getting blasted and everyone stays happy!
Not to mention when they start tinkering with the pump and the ignitor and we get a little accidental "test"...never happens...
This then puts my fuel supply 100' from the surefire, cigarette smokers and supply trucks, all full of loose garbage! They just throw a thumbs up across the site and your good to go! You can now get out and have a piss without getting someones' feet wet!
Off to the block and yes a few more advantages. You get a great view of whats going on! The widow makers are no longer a factor - some torches are amazing resilient!!! You can come off the top of the crowns then right down low into the buck brush if need be, still keeping a cool distance from the flame front.
And as reliable as the old torches were - now I don't care if they leak, catch fire etc. You will not burn the bellie panels and the line might let you get into that little pond or creek to cool things off. Not to mention if you are unlucky enough to snag the sucker, a few more valuable seconds to punch it off. Yuck...
But hey, what do I know. This is what works for me. :blink:
If you geta chance 407 try it once and let me know what you think!
now if i could convince the guides and groups to harness up to a carousel...
No one is getting blasted and everyone stays happy!
Not to mention when they start tinkering with the pump and the ignitor and we get a little accidental "test"...never happens...
This then puts my fuel supply 100' from the surefire, cigarette smokers and supply trucks, all full of loose garbage! They just throw a thumbs up across the site and your good to go! You can now get out and have a piss without getting someones' feet wet!
Off to the block and yes a few more advantages. You get a great view of whats going on! The widow makers are no longer a factor - some torches are amazing resilient!!! You can come off the top of the crowns then right down low into the buck brush if need be, still keeping a cool distance from the flame front.
And as reliable as the old torches were - now I don't care if they leak, catch fire etc. You will not burn the bellie panels and the line might let you get into that little pond or creek to cool things off. Not to mention if you are unlucky enough to snag the sucker, a few more valuable seconds to punch it off. Yuck...
But hey, what do I know. This is what works for me. :blink:
If you geta chance 407 try it once and let me know what you think!
now if i could convince the guides and groups to harness up to a carousel...
407 Driver
Veteran
- Mar 10, 2003
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Don't laugh, they DO THAT in Alaska..... "like, Longline skiing Dude , fer sure ! "
VERTICAL REF
Senior
- Mar 10, 2003
- 311
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What? Explain me? :huh:
Like "live to line, line to live" kinda thing! "No way dude, sweet..." "where's my board"
And they wonder why we just laugh, like that one you were discussing at JH!
Like "live to line, line to live" kinda thing! "No way dude, sweet..." "where's my board"
And they wonder why we just laugh, like that one you were discussing at JH!
You are too close when:
You look over at the fire boss and he has big crocodile tears streaming down his cheeks!!
I did some flying on the crown fire experiments a few years ago. Russians, Americans, Canadians, everybody was there. I was in the IR jet box over the fire at 1500 AGL, and one of the companies 204's was fitted with a bunch of vacuum sensors provided by NASA.
Long story short is that the 204 was tasked with flying as close as possible to the fire in order to get the best readings while the fire was crowning. I think they were shooting for 60 mph. Other than the extremely violent turbulence, the aircraft suffered no significant damage. If memory serves me correct, the temperature readings on the ground were on the order of 2200 degrees F. :blink:
There is a great video out there documenting the whole thing. The funny thing(well, not really) was watching the footage from inside the fire as it raced through the test area. Inside amongst all the sensors, was some survival gear the CFS was testing for the protection of fire fighters. Everything was reduced to crispy critters. So much for that survival blanket. :down:
Would much rather be in the air rassling fires than on the ground!!
Bottoms up.
You look over at the fire boss and he has big crocodile tears streaming down his cheeks!!
I did some flying on the crown fire experiments a few years ago. Russians, Americans, Canadians, everybody was there. I was in the IR jet box over the fire at 1500 AGL, and one of the companies 204's was fitted with a bunch of vacuum sensors provided by NASA.
Long story short is that the 204 was tasked with flying as close as possible to the fire in order to get the best readings while the fire was crowning. I think they were shooting for 60 mph. Other than the extremely violent turbulence, the aircraft suffered no significant damage. If memory serves me correct, the temperature readings on the ground were on the order of 2200 degrees F. :blink:
There is a great video out there documenting the whole thing. The funny thing(well, not really) was watching the footage from inside the fire as it raced through the test area. Inside amongst all the sensors, was some survival gear the CFS was testing for the protection of fire fighters. Everything was reduced to crispy critters. So much for that survival blanket. :down:
Would much rather be in the air rassling fires than on the ground!!
Bottoms up.
VR, thanks for the idea about longlining the torch. Don't know why it never camde up over here. I'm sure we'll give it a whirl, and betting it'll become the norm - for all the good reasons you give.
As to how close is too close, I have to admit I've gotten into the real heat on more than one occasion, but only with a medium. There's clearly nothing to gain with a light.
I can remember trying to hold the line from crossing a creek with a 204 one day while everyone else was at lunch (and before the longline was in common use) and the only way I could get an effective amount of water through to the head was to 'toss' it as I banked tightly to avoid flying right into the column. I can remember that, despite the doors being off, I got a lot of heat most of the time but there were no effects on performance, or on the airframe. I did succeed in holding it on the good side of the creek, but they lost it later that afternoon. Maybe it was just that I was still 'way too young and keen.
As the man says, "Take your time, son. The fire will still be there tomorrow." B)
As to how close is too close, I have to admit I've gotten into the real heat on more than one occasion, but only with a medium. There's clearly nothing to gain with a light.
I can remember trying to hold the line from crossing a creek with a 204 one day while everyone else was at lunch (and before the longline was in common use) and the only way I could get an effective amount of water through to the head was to 'toss' it as I banked tightly to avoid flying right into the column. I can remember that, despite the doors being off, I got a lot of heat most of the time but there were no effects on performance, or on the airframe. I did succeed in holding it on the good side of the creek, but they lost it later that afternoon. Maybe it was just that I was still 'way too young and keen.
As the man says, "Take your time, son. The fire will still be there tomorrow." B)
