Flight Duty Times

[Blackbeard]

The following was sent to me by the PHPA.

I found it interesting after the discussion on Flight Duty Times that came up during the BC fires this year.

They are looking for input, ideas and discussion on Flight and Duty Times from all crews so they can go to their regulatory body and make sure that the crews viewpoint is considered during the rule-making process.
I have pasted a small part of it below for reference of anyone interested.

This is how regulation should come about. Through input from all of the people that the regulations concern. Not some operator or bureaucrats idea of what they think the industry needs.

The consensus of the discussion group was that it is time to move forward in developing recommendations on crew rest that can be used by negotiators working on collective bargaining agreements (CBA's). As we get more experience on what is safe and workable we can look into the regulatory route, which will then benefit those not covered by CBA's.

For now, we need to develop data on what is actually happening out there in the field by type of flying performed. As we develop this data, we will also be looking for recommendations from all of you out there on the line to tell us what is safe and prudent for your particular type of flying. Long line is not the same as IFR, which is not the same as VFR offshore, and one rule will not work for all.

My apologies to the PHPA for reproducing this material without permission.

 

[cap]

Blackbeard ------- THAT has been my position all along. You cannot have the same max duty day for all types of flying. I agree with their stance completely. Finally someone, somewhere is taking the 'blinkers' off and getting their act together. First they said you can only fly so many hours in a quarter. Anymore was unsafe. Then the operators said "Whoa, hang on there. That's during our busy season". So they changed it to 450 hours. Now that excess was safe all of a sudden. Then the fires start in BC and they up the hours again. Apparently the access was safe again. By their present definition, I've been illegal for 3/4 of my career. It'd be nice if they would make up their minds as to what is 'safe' and stick to it. I've seen it change 4 times now. My respect for the PHPA keeps growing.

 

[firehawk]

It would be interesting to see, what exactly this means. Are you saying longer or shorter duty days for certain types of operations? I personnally think a 14 hour day is long enough, doesnt matter what Iam doing, Sitting on a rock pile with geologists all day doing nothing or fighting fires longlining all day.

 

[Albert Ross]

More serious is almost all the Summer with hardly a day off (days not flying do not count!)

Phil

 

[GoldMember]

I would rather have only the minimum number of days off in the summer as I generally don't get many eight hour flight days in the winter.

 

[cap]

Perhaps it is I that misunderstood. I have no problem whatsoever with the 'duty day' as it is now. I do have a problem with the max number of hours that are allowed for ALL types of flying. Flying a pipeline patrol all day is not the same as doing production longlining all day......yet the totals allowed are exactly the same.


Albert Ross ----- I hear you guy and I agree. Doesn't make any difference what kind of flying you are doing, a guy looses his focus after a while. Good to 'recharge the batteries' and start out fresh every once in a while. Helps the 'bon humeur'.

 

[VERTICAL REF]

Hey FireChicken, so ya learndid hows to longline outa the old SteamHawk did ya? Good fur you mate...

 

[firehawk]

hey vert ref, I did finally get a handle on the line with the steam chicken. It took me some time, but practise makes perfect.
I guess when your throwin into filling a still well at 7000 feet and they rely on you getting there water up there to them, you'll learn real fast.
I found my biggest problem was just trying to find that seat position.
Now that I have that under control, they throw me into night flying. Gotta love those autos at night 45 kts and into the black.

 

[downwash]

Cap, you need to be more careful with the examples you pick in making your comparisons. The combination of 'target fixation' and fatigue that causes many accidents on line patrol of various kinds might surprise you. While the degree of generalization currently used in fixing flight and flight duty times is bad, it's just as easy to fall into the same traps with erroneous assumptions in specific fields.

Albert, even under the exemption granted in B.C., pilots had to have 6 x 24 off in ANY 60-day period, augmented by the 13 off in ANY 90-day period. If some operators are forcing crews to bust the regs, let's hear more about it. I know our guys stayed within the limits, some getting a little more tired than usual, but we were able (without knocking wood) to get through with no incidents, let alone one attributable to these considerations. Are you sure there's no 'dog in the manger' here?

 

[cap]

Downwash ----I hear you and understand. Anyone can have an incident or accident doing any kind of flying. They can also be tired and fatigued doing any kind of flying. They can also get cavalier in both venues also. Doing 8 hours of slinging is not the same as a pipeline patrol for Trans Canada Pipelines for 8 hours. One pilot is 'on the bubble' all the time and the other has his moments when he can just point it and just fly the aircraft and not some sling load. They both know the difference after supper is over and they swing that body into bed though. I'd also suggest that when heli-loggers get 2 on and 2 off, they appreciate that two weeks off. Otherwise, the pilot flying pipeline patrol should have the same for the same reason. Good deal if he can get it, but it won't be because his flying duties demand it.

We both had a good friend fly into wires years ago and get killed doing what some would call 'easy flying', so I'm well aware of what you speak. I'll stand with my statement though, based on what my body has told me and I can't fool it.

 

[Winnie]

Just to sling some perspective into it, in Europe the JAA is trying to make new regulations, and the are apparently not as good as here! It used to be 800 hrs maximum a year while working, in addition you can take your private machine for fun!

Now they are increasing the maximum times, and basically lodging everything into that (so NO private flying time!)

:huh: That's JAA for you!

 

[Albert Ross]

Hi Downwash - no dog in the manger - I just observed that people were taking advantage of regs that don't even seem to be in CARs yet - and which were meant to cater for specific circumstances, i.e. base managers etc, not for normal use. I know you guys would be OK, but that's not what I've been hearing about others from people who have emailed me in my other role at Vertical.

cheers


phil

 

[VERTICAL REF]

Remember the flight duty times you are now regulated by came about from the "airlines" lobby to transport canada. They are on an annual salary and wanted to do less for the same amount of money. "oh i'm over worked, these layovers in Milan are killing me..." etc (gotta love them unions eh?) :blink:

Transport Canada then lumped all the regulations into one set of rules! The problem is you now have the same numbers for commuter airline operations that you have for casual spec helicopter charters. :blink: it does not work and is money out of my pocket and the operators pocket. It no different than farming, you gotta make hay when the sun shines!

 

[cap]

Well. I've done laser survey and I've moved crews around. I gotta tell ya that after 6 hours of the former I'm glad when quitting time comes. The latter one just is not the same thing to me and once I got 'the rhythm' down, I'm good for 7-8 hours. Comes time to go beddy-by, I sure as hell know the difference between the two. Anyone pushing to have me do 8 hours of the former, better get a 'Help Wanted' advertisment in the paper real quick.

Having said that, when you have 'time-off and how long that is, can be just as potentially dangerous as hours flown.