DL to refurb cabins on narrowbody fleet

[WorldTraveler]

As completion of the upgrades on the int'l fleet are nearing their end, DL is turning attention to the domestic narrowbody fleet.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/delta-improve-passenger-comfort-225-140000532.html

Power at every seat; new galleys, lighting, and lavs; larger overhead bins; and slimline seats with higher density seem to be common themes.

Some fleets will get satellite TV; interestingly the 320s will not but the 319s will. So the 320s will be like the M80/90/717s without personal AVOD while the rest of the fleet apparently will.

It also appears that the 319/320 fleet will be retained in totality where previously DL had said some of the new deliveries of other aircraft would be used to replace older A320s. Presumably, Airbus is changing the age limits for 320 aircraft; perhaps DL bought some additional Airbus services for older aircraft as part of the recent 330/321 order. If so, that would indicate that a higher percentage of DL's new deliveries will be for growth instead of replacement.

 

[topDawg]

As completion of the upgrades on the int'l fleet are nearing their end, DL is turning attention to the domestic narrowbody fleet.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/delta-improve-passenger-comfort-225-140000532.html

Power at every seat; new galleys, lighting, and lavs; larger overhead bins; and slimline seats with higher density seem to be common themes.

Some fleets will get satellite TV; interestingly the 320s will not but the 319s will. So the 320s will be like the M80/90/717s without personal AVOD while the rest of the fleet apparently will.

It also appears that the 319/320 fleet will be retained in totality where previously DL had said some of the new deliveries of other aircraft would be used to replace older A320s. Presumably, Airbus is changing the age limits for 320 aircraft; perhaps DL bought some additional Airbus services for older aircraft as part of the recent 330/321 order. If so, that would indicate that a higher percentage of DL's new deliveries will be for growth instead of replacement.

Delta never put any 320s in the retirement plan. 
having said that half of the 320 fleet is pretty old, (25 years) which is starting to get up there. Unlike the 88/757s the airbus doesn't have the hour/cycle limits to fly forever. 
 
but it has been said they aren't dumping any airbus right now. Also, rumor has it Delta is looking at adding 15ish 752s to the staying list. Some are due from HMV-4s vs HMV-5s. 

 

[WorldTraveler]

When the 739ERs were ordered, DL said they would be used in part to replace older 757s, 767s, and 320s.



It would appear that DL is planning to retain all of the aircraft they plan to keep.

can you expound on your comment
 

. Unlike the 88/757s the airbus doesn't have the hour/cycle limits to fly forever.

what are the current life limits on the 320s and has Airbus made any changes?

also, I had heard that the cost of the overhauls on the PW2037s was the biggest cost to keeping 757s well into the future. True or not?

 

[700UW]

http://crankyflier.com/2014/01/09/delta-cabin-upgrades-show-the-outline-of-a-domestic-product-plan/

 

[FWAAA]

The part that confuses me are the A320s.    How does Delta plan to squeeze another row of First Class  plus another row of Economy for a total of 160 seats while preserving three rows of Economy Comfort with 34" pitch?   Before B6 removed any seats from its A320s (before it had any extra-space seats), the B6 A320s had 162 seats, the same as the single-class UA Ted A320s.   How do you fit 16 F seats with 36" pitch plus three rows of economy with 34" pitch plus another 126 economy seats at 30" pitch?    Looks to me like you'd have to remove all closets and lavs to make it all fit.   
 
Yes, the seats will be new slimline seats that minimize the "wasted" space that normal seatbacks occupy, but I just don't see enough room.   

 

[Kev3188]

Wasn't there some talk of removing the aft galleys on the 'Busses?

 

[FWAAA]

I suppose if you removed those rear galleys and put the two lavs back there, then it could work.
 
If you do that, where do you store the cokes, ice, buy-on-board food and trash for the huddled masses (144 poor souls) in economy?    Is there enough room in the first class galley?  
 
I feel for anyone not seated in F or EC.   30 inch pitch.   Yikes.      

 

[WorldTraveler]

I believe so at least on the 320s. DL decided with the M88s and M90s that there are many flights that will never have more than beverage service and some buy on board service so it is not worth hauling around extra galleys - and you can also put in more seats. On the M80s and 90s, there is only one front galley, although it has been enlarged. Part of the seat increase on the 757 comes about by removing some of the galley units.

I suspect the reason why the 320s aren't getting AVOD is related to the length of flight those aircraft are intended to operate. It is also possible that the 320 was chosen as the short to medium range aircraft over the 738 because the 738 can accommodate 160 passengers and still retain the rear galley. Not sure, but it may be that it is necessary to remove part of the rear galley in order to get 160 seats in the aircraft. I believe there are some carriers with some models of aircraft that have one or more lavs at the complete rear of the aircraft where galleys typically go.

DL is very good at figuring out how much demand they can expect on a given route and flight and putting only the capacity out there that can be profitably filled.

Another aspect of these seat mods and capacity increases which will take place without adding a single aircraft to the fleet is that DL's CASM will probably drop by several percent. Even with the additional 10 seats, the incremental FA costs are apparently low enough if new hire FAs are entering the system which DL is doing.

I have been on several aircraft types with 30-31" pitch and it is not what is sounds like because of the slimline seats. The key with slimline seats from what I have seat with other carriers is that the seat cushions don't appear to hold up as long as older type cushions which just means you have to be willing to replace cushions a little more often - but that is probably a reasonable tradeoff for carrying more passengers. I have been on carriers that have slimline seats that have been overworked and it isn't a pleasant experience.

 

[AdAstraPerAspera]

When Delta took out the aft galleys on the MD-88s and the MD-90s they expanded the front galleys with extra cart stowage, now everything gets rolled/hauled/funneled through the first class cabin which I'm sure is simply delightful for the FC pax, particularly the poor guy sitting in 4B on the 90 who has to be woken up and asked to put his seatback up every time the cart comes by, otherwise it doesn't fit down the aisle

 

[WorldTraveler]

I sat in FC on an AA 757 years ago when coach carts were rolled thru FC... not sure if AA does that now on any aircraft now.

The FAs didn't like the M80/90 cart setup but like everything they figure how to adapt and they make one pass thru the cabin.

The M80 is almost entirely a 2-3 hour aircraft... the M90 is used for somewhat longer legs but I would bet that will change as the 739s come into the fleet.

It still comes down to the fact that DL does a very good job of matching aircraft to markets and not putting anything more than is necessary... and generally doesn't put an aircraft on a route for very long that doesn't meet the flights needs.

The M80/M90 and now 717 is basic transportation for short-medium flights. The 320 is apparently moving into the category. You don't need a lot of galleys and AVOD means a lot less on flights of that length.

Also, I'm not sure that any other airline has committed to power at every seat of its mainline fleet and WiFi on every two cabin aircraft - mainline or regional - and if so, DL will be a step ahead of its peers unless they act.

 

[AdAstraPerAspera]

I sat in FC on an AA 757 years ago when coach carts were rolled thru FC... not sure if AA does that now on any aircraft now.
 

 
Carts are forbidden for use in any premium cabin, unless it is ultra short haul, DFW-AUS for example.
 
 

It still comes down to the fact that DL does a very good job of matching aircraft to markets and not putting anything more than is necessary... and generally doesn't put an aircraft on a route for very long that doesn't meet the flights needs.
 

 
Damn I wish you were a FA and got to experience what its like working the 90 from MSP-LAS, LOL
 
 

Also, I'm not sure that any other airline has committed to power at every seat of its mainline fleet and WiFi on every two cabin aircraft - mainline or regional - and if so, DL will be a step ahead of its peers unless they act.

 
AA has, have you not read up on the new award-winning Thales IFE system, coming standard on all their new narrowbodies?

 

[AdAstraPerAspera]

The FAs didn't like the M80/90 cart setup but like everything they figure how to adapt and they make one pass thru the cabin.
 

 
They have put the 88/90 on stage lengths where 2 bev services are required, such as ATL-TUS. Do you think they are catered for it? Absolutely not. It sucked because my partner worked it to TUS and they passed through with 2 services, and there was nothing left, figuring they would be catered for the leg back in TUS, and they weren't. As you can imagine, the poor crew working the leg back to ATL was not too happy that they had absolutely nothing to offer their passengers to drink on the 3+ hour flight
 
I'd still like to see you fly a redeye on the 90 in First Class in seat 4B and see how well you sleep.

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

I have been on several aircraft types with 30-31" pitch and it is not what is sounds like because of the slimline seats.

While the slimline seat isn't all that bad, your evaluation of the experience in the slimline seat with a 30-31" pitch will be very dependent (inversely correlated) with your height.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Pitch with any seat type is dependent on your height. Slimline seats simply take out some of the width of the seat while keeping the usable space for the passenger unchanged as long as the pitch doesn’t change more than the change in seat dimensions.

There can be crowded slimline or regular seats…. The point is that many people are concluding that seats are uncomfortable based on reduced pitch when a big part (if not all) of the reduction is coming from the slimmer seat cushions themselves.

AdAstra,
Glad to know that you have a “DL connection” via your partner… why don’t you invite him/her to join forums as well?

Since I am a data kind of guy, I’ll share with you that DL’s AVERAGE block time for M88 flights based on schedules for this week is 118 minutes… that is block so take out 20 min minimum for taxi and most M80 flights are in the air for just over an hour and there are many that block is right at an hour.

The longest M80 fight operated on a near daily basis is ATL-PUJ with is right at 4 hours. ATL-TUS is not operated with an M80 but rather with an M90. ATL-TUS is one of the longest flights from TUS in a market where there are few large aircraft. Aircraft schedulers do consider competitor schedules when assigning aircraft.

DL keeps the M80 around because DL can continue to use it profitably. A big part of profitability for a fleet type is fares and DL’s 110% revenue premium on the domestic system says people are willing to pay DL very good fares. It isn’t necessary to replace aircraft that generate profits, esp. when DL has the ability to put the right aircraft on the right route. For the most part the M80 is a short-haul, high-density aircraft for use in the eastern US. It is not fancy but it is basic, reliable transportation that generates strong profits for DL and is within customer expectations for the majority of routes on which it is used based on competitive offerings. it follows on the heels of the DC9 that is just now ending service after a run longer than most people on here are old.

I don’t believe DL or any other US carrier regularly cater on a roundtrip basis. Ice certainly won’t last a roundtrip from ATL-TUS and I find it hard to believe you can’t buy Coca-Cola products, coffee, and water in TUS. 

DL operates absolutely ZERO redeye M90 flights based on this week’s schedule.

The principle with the M80 and 90 and what DL is apparently doing with the 320 is that DL is making a very conscious decision about how and where it intends to use its diverse fleet types. DL does not intend to put more aircraft on routes than it needs if it can avoid doing so but it also provides as much or more than its competitors where it needs to.

Despite the comments that many made about DL’s diverse fleet post-merger, they are moving very decisively toward segmenting the fleet while retaining far more complexity than other carriers are willing to do. Cranky did a nice job of pointing that out.

I am aware of the IFE that AA is putting on its new order aircraft. What about existing types in both the AA and US fleets? AA and US are one airline now.

 

[Kev3188]

While the slimline seat isn't all that bad, your evaluation of the experience in the slimline seat with a 30-31" pitch will be very dependent (inversely correlated) with your height.

 
 

Pitch with any seat type is dependent on your height.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NvgLkuEtkA