Concession Poll
- Thread starter BeenThere
- Start date
- Status
NewHampshire Black Bears
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 10,154
- 681
Been there;
I have no idea what you specifically said to start this thread, but IMHO THIS is what might be considered as far as concessions go
Virtually anything could be considered
(Benifits, vacations,work rules, even step raises, already negotiated, but not actually paid out yet)
-B U T-
ABSOLUTELY NEVER give back ONE RED CENT, of the base, hourly wage, that is in effect at the time of the requested concessions !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That may sound fatalistic, but once you give back ONCE, it never stops.
(Hypothetical) Virginity, can only be lost ONCE
If it comes down to it(and I sincerely hope it does'nt), then it's Full pay, to the last day !!!!!!!!!!!!
NH/BB's
I have no idea what you specifically said to start this thread, but IMHO THIS is what might be considered as far as concessions go
Virtually anything could be considered
(Benifits, vacations,work rules, even step raises, already negotiated, but not actually paid out yet)
-B U T-
ABSOLUTELY NEVER give back ONE RED CENT, of the base, hourly wage, that is in effect at the time of the requested concessions !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That may sound fatalistic, but once you give back ONCE, it never stops.
(Hypothetical) Virginity, can only be lost ONCE
If it comes down to it(and I sincerely hope it does'nt), then it's Full pay, to the last day !!!!!!!!!!!!
NH/BB's
NewHampshire Black Bears
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 10,154
- 681
KCFlyer;
Good to see you back on YOUR 2nd. favorite airline(board)!!
I keep wondering myself, about AA's seemingly reluctance to (re) consider V/P(ing)???
Hope all is well in KCI
NH/BB's
Good to see you back on YOUR 2nd. favorite airline(board)!!
I keep wondering myself, about AA's seemingly reluctance to (re) consider V/P(ing)???
Hope all is well in KCI
NH/BB's
MileHighGuy
Member
- Oct 14, 2002
- 61
- 0
[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 11/1/2002 5
05 AM NewHampshire Black Bears wrote:
[P]-B U T-[BR]ABSOLUTELY NEVER give back ONE RED CENT, of the base, hourly wage, that is in effect at the time of the requested concessions !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![BR]That may sound fatalistic, but once you give back ONCE, it never stops.[BR][BR](Hypothetical) Virginity, can only be lost ONCE[BR][BR]If it comes down to it(and I sincerely hope it does'nt), then it's Full pay, to the last day !!!!!!!!!!!![BR][BR]NH/BB's[BR][BR][/P]
[P]----------------[/P]
[P]Boy are you in for a rude awakening![/P][/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P][/P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 11/1/2002 5
05 AM NewHampshire Black Bears wrote: [P]-B U T-[BR]ABSOLUTELY NEVER give back ONE RED CENT, of the base, hourly wage, that is in effect at the time of the requested concessions !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![BR]That may sound fatalistic, but once you give back ONCE, it never stops.[BR][BR](Hypothetical) Virginity, can only be lost ONCE[BR][BR]If it comes down to it(and I sincerely hope it does'nt), then it's Full pay, to the last day !!!!!!!!!!!![BR][BR]NH/BB's[BR][BR][/P]
[P]----------------[/P]
[P]Boy are you in for a rude awakening![/P][/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P][/P]
KCFlyer
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 11,285
- 1,427
[P]NHBB - how about this scenario....any givebacks from labor should be accompanied by a revamping of the revenue models...Implement value pricing and stick with it. Imagine who the business persons airline of choice would be - More room throughout coach AND fares that won't scare business passengers away. IMHO, you do that and AA will turn around far faster than the others. [/P]
[P]Also, how about having managment put some goals in writing - that state when certain operating statistics and profits reach a certain points, a gradual restoration of any concessions will take place. In other words, don't just wait for a until things improve statement...Have them put in the goals to be attained, and what employees can expect in return. After a full recovery has been reached, and pay and benefits return to 2002 levels, why not include a reward for the past sacrifices in the form of a bonus for labor? Give folks something to shoot for instead of just asking for cuts. When labors goals and managment's goals are the same, I think that managment will find that they will have their employee groups giving 110% day in and day out. [/P]
[P]Airline labor/managment relations have always been pretty adversarial. Managment should take the first step to show labor that you all really are in this together, and set concrete goals to be met along with concrete rewards to be achieved. All it ever seems to have been in the past is drastic cuts from labor, and when times turn around, mega bonuses for execs and heated negotiations with labor about how they just can't afford their demands. Times have gotta change. And there's no better time than now.[/P]
[P]Also, how about having managment put some goals in writing - that state when certain operating statistics and profits reach a certain points, a gradual restoration of any concessions will take place. In other words, don't just wait for a until things improve statement...Have them put in the goals to be attained, and what employees can expect in return. After a full recovery has been reached, and pay and benefits return to 2002 levels, why not include a reward for the past sacrifices in the form of a bonus for labor? Give folks something to shoot for instead of just asking for cuts. When labors goals and managment's goals are the same, I think that managment will find that they will have their employee groups giving 110% day in and day out. [/P]
[P]Airline labor/managment relations have always been pretty adversarial. Managment should take the first step to show labor that you all really are in this together, and set concrete goals to be met along with concrete rewards to be achieved. All it ever seems to have been in the past is drastic cuts from labor, and when times turn around, mega bonuses for execs and heated negotiations with labor about how they just can't afford their demands. Times have gotta change. And there's no better time than now.[/P]
Imagine this:
Mgt. takes the same percentage cut in pay as the group giving up the largest percentage. All concessions must be accompanied by a corresponding percentage equated to a monetary equivalent: the concessions and their valuation are cross-indexed for all groups.
All compensation other than w-2 for All Mgt. is in the form of stock options that come with a vesting schedule equal to the longest schedule that hourly workers take in their concessions. If the last work group snaps-back in 10 years, Mgt. stock options 100% vest in 10 years and are only exercised when 100% vested.
Anyone recieving compensation by virtue of employment with AMR or its' subsidiaries recieves the same Flex Benefits Plan.
Anyone recieving retirement compensation by virtue of employment with or payment from AMR or its' subsidiaries recieves the same percentage as being compared between full retirement from a fully funded pension and the reduction realized by the failure to fully fund same or realized as the consequence of any court proceeding. If a part-time agent recieves only 60% of their retirement; so does everyone else.
Share the pain, share the gain.
Mgt. takes the same percentage cut in pay as the group giving up the largest percentage. All concessions must be accompanied by a corresponding percentage equated to a monetary equivalent: the concessions and their valuation are cross-indexed for all groups.
All compensation other than w-2 for All Mgt. is in the form of stock options that come with a vesting schedule equal to the longest schedule that hourly workers take in their concessions. If the last work group snaps-back in 10 years, Mgt. stock options 100% vest in 10 years and are only exercised when 100% vested.
Anyone recieving compensation by virtue of employment with AMR or its' subsidiaries recieves the same Flex Benefits Plan.
Anyone recieving retirement compensation by virtue of employment with or payment from AMR or its' subsidiaries recieves the same percentage as being compared between full retirement from a fully funded pension and the reduction realized by the failure to fully fund same or realized as the consequence of any court proceeding. If a part-time agent recieves only 60% of their retirement; so does everyone else.
Share the pain, share the gain.
When it comes to concessions we are already giving and I dont feel that we should give any more. We were able to gain back a lot of lost ground this contract but we are still concessionary in regards to past buying power earned per hour. Our hourly rate still lags inflation by a couple of dollars per hour, we have to pay for medical, prefunding, higher FICA and payroll taxes as a result of the deflection of the tax burden away from corporations and the rich, a longer workweek by virtue of the unpaid lunch period and the loss of jobs due to work rule concessions that transferred work from higher paid mechanics to fleet service clerks and outside contractors.
While it might sound good to say that MGMT should take the same cuts as us it really doesnt work out that they share the pain or the gain. The cuts that workers take permanently lower their lifetime earnings. The likelyhood of them making up the difference when the company prospers is slim. Its never happened in the past. Profit sharing was ineffective since those who made the most got the most. When the company returns to profitability the managers reap the rewards while the workers get to just watch. Snap backs just bring you back to where you were, not counting inflation.
Its not unusual for top managers to recieve bonuses that are greater than their salaries.Profit sharing on the other hand was a small percentage based on your lowered earnings. Profit sharing in the best of times did not even come close to covering losses due to concessions.
No More concessions. They got them already, work on increasing productivity.
While it might sound good to say that MGMT should take the same cuts as us it really doesnt work out that they share the pain or the gain. The cuts that workers take permanently lower their lifetime earnings. The likelyhood of them making up the difference when the company prospers is slim. Its never happened in the past. Profit sharing was ineffective since those who made the most got the most. When the company returns to profitability the managers reap the rewards while the workers get to just watch. Snap backs just bring you back to where you were, not counting inflation.
Its not unusual for top managers to recieve bonuses that are greater than their salaries.Profit sharing on the other hand was a small percentage based on your lowered earnings. Profit sharing in the best of times did not even come close to covering losses due to concessions.
No More concessions. They got them already, work on increasing productivity.
WingNaPrayer
Veteran
Not to mention the fact that the new health care plan for 2003 is a bite in the ass. The monthly deductions are going up slightly, but the real bite is in co-payments, especially for prescription drugs where the co-payment for non-generics is going up nearly THREE HUNDRED TWENTY FIVE PERCENT! This year non-generic prescriptions are a co-pay of 17.00 next year that co-payment rises to 75.00 and for many non-generic prescriptions, that means the plan will pay for nothing. One of the prescriptions I take is 66.00 for a 30 day supply. If I were on this plan that means the co-pay of up to 75.00 would pay for none of the prescription. Co-pays for doctor's visits as well as hospital, outpatient services...all of it, going up. So in this instance, the employees will be paying more for less. If that isn't a mandatory concession, I don't know what is.
There has been all kinds of chatter from TPTB asking for more productivity and asking employees to work harder...are they still going to ask for that if they start slashing salaries? You bet they will!
Wage concessions mean nothing more than your employer has absolutely no appreciation for the job you do and therefore are unwilling to pay you fair compensation for it.
Anyone, union or not, who agrees to a wage concession for any reason deserves the unemployment line.
There has been all kinds of chatter from TPTB asking for more productivity and asking employees to work harder...are they still going to ask for that if they start slashing salaries? You bet they will!
Wage concessions mean nothing more than your employer has absolutely no appreciation for the job you do and therefore are unwilling to pay you fair compensation for it.
Anyone, union or not, who agrees to a wage concession for any reason deserves the unemployment line.
B
bagsmasher
Guest
I haven't been monitoring these boards as much as usual, but I would take that last post by WingNa as if he has finally admitted that he is an AA employee?
WingNaPrayer
Veteran
....good thing you aren't paid to THINK now isn't it.
[blockquote]
----------------
On 11/2/2002 11:03:19 AM WingNaPrayer wrote:
Not to mention the fact that the new health care plan for 2003 is a bite in the ass. The monthly deductions are going up slightly, but the real bite is in co-payments, especially for prescription drugs where the co-payment for non-generics is going up nearly THREE HUNDRED TWENTY FIVE PERCENT! This year non-generic prescriptions are a co-pay of 17.00 next year that co-payment rises to 75.00 and for many non-generic prescriptions, that means the plan will pay for nothing. One of the prescriptions I take is 66.00 for a 30 day supply. If I were on this plan that means the co-pay of up to 75.00 would pay for none of the prescription. Co-pays for doctor's visits as well as hospital, outpatient services...all of it, going up. So in this instance, the employees will be paying more for less. If that isn't a mandatory concession, I don't know what is.
----------------
[/blockquote]
That maybe the cost over at Walgreens. From what I read the the cost for a generic drug goes to 20 dollars from 10. The cost of a brand name goes to 50 from 30 dollars. Thats for the standard and the POS plans. I dont know how you can be paying 17 for a perscription when it should be currently 10 or 20 dollars. Unless that is a HMO perscription charge.
----------------
On 11/2/2002 11:03:19 AM WingNaPrayer wrote:
Not to mention the fact that the new health care plan for 2003 is a bite in the ass. The monthly deductions are going up slightly, but the real bite is in co-payments, especially for prescription drugs where the co-payment for non-generics is going up nearly THREE HUNDRED TWENTY FIVE PERCENT! This year non-generic prescriptions are a co-pay of 17.00 next year that co-payment rises to 75.00 and for many non-generic prescriptions, that means the plan will pay for nothing. One of the prescriptions I take is 66.00 for a 30 day supply. If I were on this plan that means the co-pay of up to 75.00 would pay for none of the prescription. Co-pays for doctor's visits as well as hospital, outpatient services...all of it, going up. So in this instance, the employees will be paying more for less. If that isn't a mandatory concession, I don't know what is.
----------------
[/blockquote]
That maybe the cost over at Walgreens. From what I read the the cost for a generic drug goes to 20 dollars from 10. The cost of a brand name goes to 50 from 30 dollars. Thats for the standard and the POS plans. I dont know how you can be paying 17 for a perscription when it should be currently 10 or 20 dollars. Unless that is a HMO perscription charge.
WingNaPrayer
Veteran
I think the rates you're quoting are for the prescriptions by mail program. I asked again and it's definitely going to a maximum 75.00 co-pay for non-generic prescriptions next year.
- Status
