Changing The Face Of Training

[sweetlilsky]

Hey you guys,

I read an interesting post in a helicopter thread about how private flying schools should only be able to train up to the Recreational or PPL. The premise was, that it would mean only the best would then compete in Commercial Aviation, through public schools. I have to say I find this appealing.

How many dozens of flying schools do you find in large urban areas? Far too many, and it seems (at least from my experience) that they are just in business to pump out thousands of dollars from far too many hopefuls. Wouldn't it be great to have your flight training for free if you knew that you were among the top selected (kind of like Universities, although asides from intelligence, I don't know how they would test your aptitude for motor skills) to go that extra step?

A friend of mine from Québec told me that there was a Cégep in Chicoutimi where you could get all your training done free, though in 3 years. I looked at their selection criteria and I have to agree with a selection process, after all, there are only so many jobs out there for pilots. But of course Education is a provincial jurisdiction and good luck getting every province to get their government to set up schools like that... What do you think?

 

[MagSeal]

i agree there is an overabundance of pilots out there, but sometimes the real world separates the wheat from the chaffe so to speak. no test in my books could ever determine how well a guy fits in in the big picture, a smart guy with all the right credentials may not get along with people (customers) and vice versa. i hope you understand what i mean.

 

[Winnie]

MagSeal, that reply was right on the money!!

I have to agree 100% that the "cream of the crop" may just be shite when you cut to the chase, and introduce the new "ace" to their coworkers and customers.

Nah, it just don't work that way. It's natural selection and survival of the fittest in this business, you gotta wanna move, and you gotta wanna work hard, if you're ever gonna make it.

(MagSeal, did you see the other thread, you know, about flying from Elmira to Abbotsford?)

Cheers
Winnie

 

[sharky]

I'd have to agree with Mags and Winn as well. There's lots of schools in lots of other vocations producing graduates that don't necessarily find their career in that field. It's sink or swim, not just in this line of work.

 

[sweetlilsky]

Hey, don't quote me on this, but I believe that in France that is the way it works - if you want to work professionally (as opposed to holding a private pilot license which you can obtain from local flying schools) there is one national school where competition is fierce and ONLY those people can work in commercial aviation once they successfully complete all requirements. From what I understand you have to do a "license" in math, which is equivalent to a BA here but lasts 3 years, followed by a license for flying. Please correct me if you know otherwise.

I do have to agree with you all on the fact that the best probably do get the jobs anyways BUT having an institution just for those interested in working commercially would have its advantages. For one, "the cream of the crop" that you guys are talking about would hopefully not have to take as long of a journey, bypassing some unscrupulous flights schools and let's face it, some unscrupulous instructors... (although there are some fantastic ones out there, unfortunately the ones I know didn't stick around for long)

I also just don't find it ethical for some places to have "accelarated" ground school - for the commercial no less - which lasts only 3 days, or to force you to fly with their newest guy who has been flying for a total of 1.5 years (from the fam flight to the instructor rating - and yes I have seen this) or who is only 18 years old (yes I have also seen this and frankly if you aren't "qualified" to teach someone to drive in BC unless you are 25, I don't think 18 can cut it for a plane).

Self-study is one thing (in the case of the oh so short ground school - even if it is the "normal" kind as opposed to being accelerated), which is basically what you have to do to learn what you need. Unfortunately, having more than 60 hours of ground school to cover things would be so much better, and we just don't get that luxury with your average flying school.

Having to ask my questions to someone who is an airline pilot or the like, because X person isn't nearly knowledgeable enough, just doesn't make sense to me. I wouldn't expect to have to know a number of professional journalists, as friends, to learn what I'm paying my university top dollar to teach me. I know most people choose the instructor route to build hours, but there has to be a better way. There are just too many other inconsistencies between the schools.

 

[sweetlilsky]

One more topic I forgot to discuss - professionalism. While this may not occur to you, girls have to put up with a little bit extra, in flight training, then you guys do. If you're a pretty girl, you can dress like it's winter when it's blazing hot, it doesn't help. What are you supposed to do, complain to the CFI and say "here, this is the list of names of the instructors under your employ who hit on me", "and here you have the list of those who stare me up and down"? It wouldn't work (especially when they already know and just joke about it). There's a lot of harrassment that goes on. Whereas, if flying were taught at say just Universities, you wouldn't have to deal with that with your professors and TAs (and flight instructors) - there's protocol. That's my two cents.

 

[Winnie]

sweetlilsky
You need to come to London!
We definately (sp?) don't hit on our students, and if any of my instructors did, I dare say that I and the prez of the company would have something very nasty to say to the culprit involved.

We have a complete 80 hour ground school, 1 on 1, with EACH student, although it probably runs closer to 100 hrs.

And if you don't believe me, well ask around.
My wife is also a helicopter pilot, and I have heard horror stories, but I will just have to say that sexist remarks and behaviour "unbecomming" professionals will not occur within our flight department.

Now, you are probably finished with your training since these remarks came?
Well, come see us!

 

[Blackmac]

Sweetlilsky.

It is very refreshing to hear somebody with your background in avaition to be so observant, of some of the problems in our society and your opinion on training. Keep up the intelligent comments.

As you know I am a member of HEPAC and one of my main concerns is the turnout of low time pilots, the cost, the chances of finding a job with nothing else to offer except !00+ hr flying time.

I would like to see a committe formed within HEPAC to address this issue and make recommendations to the powers that be.

Anyhow, welcome to the site and keep up the posts, including opinions and ask all the question you want.

If I don't have the answer (the great guru), somebody else will and it will probably be "Biggles".

Cheers, Don

 

[Vortex Ring]

I gots an idea, why not make pilot training the responsibility of the military. Anyone wishing to go beyond a private/recreational licence joins military and serves a mandatory five years after wings. Some will stay beyond five years, some will go.

Helps military, helps standarization and output on civilian side.

Two oiseaux, one stone

NOTE: statement made for entertainment only. All ideas stated so far seem quasi communist and not viable in democratic, free enterprise based society.

 

[Blackmac]

Vortex Ring;

I always wondered is that because of the "Ring of Fire"

As the military schools (flight & maintenance) are already funded by the tax payer, Borden, Portage, Jaw of the Moose etc., why not use them, as they are not being utilized to there full potential.

Military could have access to potential pilots and the rest go to civvy street in accordance with requirements.

Standardization would be accomplished and the aviation industry could control pilot and ame requirements thru ATAC and CAMC.

Think aboot it.

Cheers, Don

 

[100ft]

Would theie R22 trainers still need to have a cojo and a flight engineer hanging their heads out the doors calling the final few feet before touchdown?

The military ftu's would have to drastically change the training cirricullum if they were to put out private sector ready cpl-h's from a standardized program. I suppose they could handle that.

 

[Vortex Ring]

Ah yes, the old I'm a taxpayer ...... well me pays taxes too ya know.

Yes our schools could probably handle it, we would need more instructors but as 100 ft states, we are totally geared towards a crew environment and would have to drastically change our courses to turn out VFR, longlining 206 drivers.

The one thing the military does do that perhaps civilian schools should and or could do is selection training. While the answer may not (obviously) be for the military to do training across the board, it may behoove the industry to start selecting pilots more along the lines of what we do.

You would get fewer pilots into the schools and have a chance at training a more employeable end product. This would only work through legislation by government so that all schools were on equal footing of course. Perhaps that is where the focus should be? Selection and limited outputs regulated by geographical area?

Don't throw stones, just thinking out loud and generating discussion, I am definitely not criticizing nor am I professing that our (DND) system is better.

PS: Putting Wings on five brand new pilots tomorrow and on Monday we start the new course with eight newbies fresh from the Harvard II. Gotta teach those poor kids how to fly properly, none of those silly runways now...

 

[tDawe]

VR,

I'm not trying to bash your idea, but I am curious, I was turned down for CF duty due to 20/30 uncorrected eyesight in one eye. Does this mean I'm unfit for anything more then recreational flying?

I think the idea of some sort of entrance requirements for a Commercial school involving something other then "Do you have money?, you do? lots of it?, great, welcome aboard." would be a great idea, and standardized courses could deal with more real world applications, simulate contracts in various types of fields, ie spray vs. siesmic vs. IFR etc. to try and give students a wider base of knowledge.

Winne et al. I know not all schools accept everyone with time to kill and two truckloads of cash, but some do, and I reckon these are the ones this post is about.

As always, my most humble of opinions.

tDawe

 

[Biggles]

Mr Blackmac, nothing like a wee bit of pressure, however and typically I do best under them circumstances .... and now that I have or will be having more time on my hands, I'll be or try to be more active on the site.

The Biggster

 

[Blackmac]

Good comments everybody, I wasn't trying to put you on the spot MS.Biggles, all in good fun.

VR: Good comeback, I was thinking more along the line of using the same facilities and possibly equipment up to a certain point, with a more cohisive approach to training for both military and civvies.

Anyhow, like I said, it should be looked at.

Cheers, Don