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Face to Face With Former NTSB Member John Goglia
Aviation Week & Space Technology
08/23/2004, page 74
Former NTSB member--plain talking, never dull--looks back . . . and forward
Back to Basics
Think of aviation maintenance, think of John J. Goglia. Think of safety, think of John J. Goglia. In 1995, he became the first licensed mechanic to become an NTSB member. Since then, the outspoken Goglia's voice has been heard above the others in safety board probes, doggedly raising industry awareness of the role of maintenance in accidents. Anyone who's attended an NTSB accident hearing is familiar with how he sizzles witnesses in the quest to find out what went wrong and how to make it right again.
Maintenance-related investigations marked his arrival and departure from the NTSB. He presided over the ValuJet Airlines Flight 592 hearing. The DC-9 crashed in the Florida Everglades in 1996. The airline's failure to oversee its contract maintenance program was cited as a contributing factor. In May, Goglia formally stepped down from the board at the final hearing into the crash of Air Midwest Flight 5481 at Charlotte, N.C. The loss of pitch control that caused the January 2003 accident that killed 21 people was the result of incorrect rigging of the elevator control system.
For all his toughness, Goglia is a man who's not afraid to openly express the more tender emotions--especially for the families of accident victims. He has worked assiduously to win them more compassionate treatment from industry.
Goglia met with Transport Editor Frances Fiorino to talk about his post-NTSB life, which, no surprise, is devoted to building aviation safety.
Aviation Week & Space Technology: Financially strapped air carriers are cutting costs, but are they cutting corners in maintenance and thereby compromising the safety of passengers?
John Goglia: I'd say there's a lot of pressure on people within the airline community to deliver the product much cheaper, much quicker than they ever have in the past. And that kind of pressure often results in substandard work.
Not long after I arrived at the NTSB in 1995, I realized my concerns about maintenance were far greater than I had anticipated. Since then, the industry has gone through several periods of right-sizing, down-sizing--and all the fancy words we use for working faster, better, cheaper. It all means the same thing: doing more work with fewer people. But sometimes, under certain circumstances, there is no substitute for people. And when you cut your operation down to the bare bone, or maybe into the bone, you get an off-standard operation and find yourself behind the curve.
AW&ST: How has industry changed since you joined the NTSB?
JG: The aviation business is integrated. We are supposed to fit like a hand in a glove--but we are no longer fitting into the glove. We are turning into vertical silos and we don't talk very much, or very efficiently, across those silos.
AW&ST: What's the reason for that?
JG: The culture has shifted, in particular, the way we're managing the workforce. When I started this business, everyone helped each other. I was a maintenance person, but I'd also help ramp guys struggling to load an aircraft. It was like that across the board. You don't see that happening anymore; it's one simple example of the disconnects in industry.
AW&ST: How would industry reconnect?
JG: All I hear at meetings are grandiose plans on how we are going to fix the system. What we really need to do is go back to basics.
Managers aren't managing our workforce. One of the manager's responsibilities is to remove obstacles to getting a task done. But for whatever reason, managers instead have been driven down too close to, or become part of, the operation. They are more part of the crew trying to get the job done. We must make certain they develop the personal skills and have the tools to handle the workforce.
AW&ST: What skills and tools do you think are necessary?
JG: First, they need people skills to work with employees and they need whatever tools are available--knowledge about their job and the workplace, for instance--to perform effectively.
AW&ST: What is the quality of maintenance training out there?
JG: Training has been thin for maintenance employees. On the air transport side, there's been a big shift toward contracting out heavy maintenance. During the course of investigations, the NTSB found the vast majority of people who work on the airplane are unlicensed. Because the turnover rate is as high as 50% a year, there's a reluctance to invest money in training them.
Where does that leave the traveling public? Where does that leave the airline? The airline is paying good money to have this work done. Based upon what I've seen lately for warranty claims and such, carriers are not getting their money's worth as far as quality is concerned.
AW&ST: You've been very vocal about the need for improved oversight of repair stations. Are airlines meeting the challenge?
JG: There are a number of airlines with good programs. I've been particularly impressed with the efforts of America West Airlines and FedEx (see p. 76). Each of these airlines has taken a different approach, but the end result is a much higher quality product when the airplane goes out the door.
And remember, repair stations are staffed by humans. When you measure performance, it's amazing how much better the product is improved.
AW&ST: You are a proponent of infusing human factors into maintenance. What progress has been made?
JG: Human factors is not applied very well now in commercial aviation. A number of operators have portions of a good program but no one has embraced it fully. Human factors is mainly about teaching people how to communicate. In the maintenance environment, "communicating" doesn't necessarily mean you and I conversing while we're turning wrenches. It means learning how to accurately pass on job information to the guy on the next shift.
It also means management's sharing important job information in open dialogue with all crewmembers and workers being able to voice opinions without retribution. Closed dialogue is more common. That's how the grease problems on Alaska Airlines Flight 261 never saw the light of day. Imagine losing 88 people because of grease? That made me mad.
[Editor's note: Alaska Airlines Flight 261 crashed Jan. 31, 2000, killing 88 people. The NTSB determined that insufficient lubrication of the jackscrew assembly contributed to the probable cause of the crash: loss of pitch control resulting from inflight failure of the horizontal stabilizer trim system assembly's acme nut threads.]
AW&ST: You'd expressed anger at a number of hearings. Looking back over your years at the NTSB, what's angered you the most?
JG: I rattled a number of people . . . because I ask the questions that nobody wants to ask, and no one wants to answer. But they need to be put on, not under, the table: "Are you embarrassed, Mr. Maintenance Manager?--then do something about it!"
One of the things that got to me most has been fixed: The treatment of family members of accident victims. The Family Assistance Plan for Aviation Disasters Act, which was passed following the TWA Flight 800 accident, improved the situation. Families are now kept well-informed. Prior to that, the accident airline dealt with the families, and with rare exception, did not do a very good job. Their focus wasn't 100% on making certain the families understood the facts.
AW&ST: The NTSB has been criticized for not having board members with an aviation background. How much of a problem does that create in investigations?
JG: It can be a problem. When an accident report comes to the board, the board's job is to balance out the recommendations. We do that by probing members of the [investigative] staff. If you don't have the technical background--and nine out of 10 accidents we see are very technical in nature--then you do not have the ability to ask appropriate questions. Or if you do ask a question, you might not grasp the answer, or don't know if the answer is complete. So that leads to a little disconnect, and the scales between the board and staff are then out of balance.
But consider the system is not even 40 years old. And if you look at what's happened in 37 years, we have made tremendous improvements--in the airplanes, in the material we use in the airplanes, aircraft systems, and now we have been focusing on people issues. So the system really has served us well.
AW&ST: You are a workaholic, putting in 70-90 hr. a week at the NTSB. What's on your agenda now?
JG: I'm planning to do some government affairs work with the Professional Aviation Maintenance Assn. and represent a portion of industry--general aviation and some repair stations--that has no voice. Also, I've joined the faculty of St. Louis University as professor of aviation science in the Parks College of Engineering, Aviation and Technology. They've asked me to help develop a Center for Emergency Response, not just for aviation, but for all disasters. I plan a model that would build skills through education; for example, for students in bachelor/master's programs and certificate programs for those already in the field. Some aviation safety consulting work is also part of the plan.
AW&ST: Do you have a message for industry?
JG: There are pieces of our operation that are not functioning very well today. But they can be made to function much better--if we go back to the basics. We don't have to spend millions of dollars. We don't have to design new computer systems. We have in place all the bits and pieces we need.
We have a wonderful industry that has always responded to problems. And the industry will respond in a cost-effective way to get the job done. What we need to do is make certain we can stay focused to get that done. This is not rocket science. It's paying attention to detail.
Aviation Week & Space Technology
08/23/2004, page 74
Former NTSB member--plain talking, never dull--looks back . . . and forward
Back to Basics
Think of aviation maintenance, think of John J. Goglia. Think of safety, think of John J. Goglia. In 1995, he became the first licensed mechanic to become an NTSB member. Since then, the outspoken Goglia's voice has been heard above the others in safety board probes, doggedly raising industry awareness of the role of maintenance in accidents. Anyone who's attended an NTSB accident hearing is familiar with how he sizzles witnesses in the quest to find out what went wrong and how to make it right again.
Maintenance-related investigations marked his arrival and departure from the NTSB. He presided over the ValuJet Airlines Flight 592 hearing. The DC-9 crashed in the Florida Everglades in 1996. The airline's failure to oversee its contract maintenance program was cited as a contributing factor. In May, Goglia formally stepped down from the board at the final hearing into the crash of Air Midwest Flight 5481 at Charlotte, N.C. The loss of pitch control that caused the January 2003 accident that killed 21 people was the result of incorrect rigging of the elevator control system.
For all his toughness, Goglia is a man who's not afraid to openly express the more tender emotions--especially for the families of accident victims. He has worked assiduously to win them more compassionate treatment from industry.
Goglia met with Transport Editor Frances Fiorino to talk about his post-NTSB life, which, no surprise, is devoted to building aviation safety.
Aviation Week & Space Technology: Financially strapped air carriers are cutting costs, but are they cutting corners in maintenance and thereby compromising the safety of passengers?
John Goglia: I'd say there's a lot of pressure on people within the airline community to deliver the product much cheaper, much quicker than they ever have in the past. And that kind of pressure often results in substandard work.
Not long after I arrived at the NTSB in 1995, I realized my concerns about maintenance were far greater than I had anticipated. Since then, the industry has gone through several periods of right-sizing, down-sizing--and all the fancy words we use for working faster, better, cheaper. It all means the same thing: doing more work with fewer people. But sometimes, under certain circumstances, there is no substitute for people. And when you cut your operation down to the bare bone, or maybe into the bone, you get an off-standard operation and find yourself behind the curve.
AW&ST: How has industry changed since you joined the NTSB?
JG: The aviation business is integrated. We are supposed to fit like a hand in a glove--but we are no longer fitting into the glove. We are turning into vertical silos and we don't talk very much, or very efficiently, across those silos.
AW&ST: What's the reason for that?
JG: The culture has shifted, in particular, the way we're managing the workforce. When I started this business, everyone helped each other. I was a maintenance person, but I'd also help ramp guys struggling to load an aircraft. It was like that across the board. You don't see that happening anymore; it's one simple example of the disconnects in industry.
AW&ST: How would industry reconnect?
JG: All I hear at meetings are grandiose plans on how we are going to fix the system. What we really need to do is go back to basics.
Managers aren't managing our workforce. One of the manager's responsibilities is to remove obstacles to getting a task done. But for whatever reason, managers instead have been driven down too close to, or become part of, the operation. They are more part of the crew trying to get the job done. We must make certain they develop the personal skills and have the tools to handle the workforce.
AW&ST: What skills and tools do you think are necessary?
JG: First, they need people skills to work with employees and they need whatever tools are available--knowledge about their job and the workplace, for instance--to perform effectively.
AW&ST: What is the quality of maintenance training out there?
JG: Training has been thin for maintenance employees. On the air transport side, there's been a big shift toward contracting out heavy maintenance. During the course of investigations, the NTSB found the vast majority of people who work on the airplane are unlicensed. Because the turnover rate is as high as 50% a year, there's a reluctance to invest money in training them.
Where does that leave the traveling public? Where does that leave the airline? The airline is paying good money to have this work done. Based upon what I've seen lately for warranty claims and such, carriers are not getting their money's worth as far as quality is concerned.
AW&ST: You've been very vocal about the need for improved oversight of repair stations. Are airlines meeting the challenge?
JG: There are a number of airlines with good programs. I've been particularly impressed with the efforts of America West Airlines and FedEx (see p. 76). Each of these airlines has taken a different approach, but the end result is a much higher quality product when the airplane goes out the door.
And remember, repair stations are staffed by humans. When you measure performance, it's amazing how much better the product is improved.
AW&ST: You are a proponent of infusing human factors into maintenance. What progress has been made?
JG: Human factors is not applied very well now in commercial aviation. A number of operators have portions of a good program but no one has embraced it fully. Human factors is mainly about teaching people how to communicate. In the maintenance environment, "communicating" doesn't necessarily mean you and I conversing while we're turning wrenches. It means learning how to accurately pass on job information to the guy on the next shift.
It also means management's sharing important job information in open dialogue with all crewmembers and workers being able to voice opinions without retribution. Closed dialogue is more common. That's how the grease problems on Alaska Airlines Flight 261 never saw the light of day. Imagine losing 88 people because of grease? That made me mad.
[Editor's note: Alaska Airlines Flight 261 crashed Jan. 31, 2000, killing 88 people. The NTSB determined that insufficient lubrication of the jackscrew assembly contributed to the probable cause of the crash: loss of pitch control resulting from inflight failure of the horizontal stabilizer trim system assembly's acme nut threads.]
AW&ST: You'd expressed anger at a number of hearings. Looking back over your years at the NTSB, what's angered you the most?
JG: I rattled a number of people . . . because I ask the questions that nobody wants to ask, and no one wants to answer. But they need to be put on, not under, the table: "Are you embarrassed, Mr. Maintenance Manager?--then do something about it!"
One of the things that got to me most has been fixed: The treatment of family members of accident victims. The Family Assistance Plan for Aviation Disasters Act, which was passed following the TWA Flight 800 accident, improved the situation. Families are now kept well-informed. Prior to that, the accident airline dealt with the families, and with rare exception, did not do a very good job. Their focus wasn't 100% on making certain the families understood the facts.
AW&ST: The NTSB has been criticized for not having board members with an aviation background. How much of a problem does that create in investigations?
JG: It can be a problem. When an accident report comes to the board, the board's job is to balance out the recommendations. We do that by probing members of the [investigative] staff. If you don't have the technical background--and nine out of 10 accidents we see are very technical in nature--then you do not have the ability to ask appropriate questions. Or if you do ask a question, you might not grasp the answer, or don't know if the answer is complete. So that leads to a little disconnect, and the scales between the board and staff are then out of balance.
But consider the system is not even 40 years old. And if you look at what's happened in 37 years, we have made tremendous improvements--in the airplanes, in the material we use in the airplanes, aircraft systems, and now we have been focusing on people issues. So the system really has served us well.
AW&ST: You are a workaholic, putting in 70-90 hr. a week at the NTSB. What's on your agenda now?
JG: I'm planning to do some government affairs work with the Professional Aviation Maintenance Assn. and represent a portion of industry--general aviation and some repair stations--that has no voice. Also, I've joined the faculty of St. Louis University as professor of aviation science in the Parks College of Engineering, Aviation and Technology. They've asked me to help develop a Center for Emergency Response, not just for aviation, but for all disasters. I plan a model that would build skills through education; for example, for students in bachelor/master's programs and certificate programs for those already in the field. Some aviation safety consulting work is also part of the plan.
AW&ST: Do you have a message for industry?
JG: There are pieces of our operation that are not functioning very well today. But they can be made to function much better--if we go back to the basics. We don't have to spend millions of dollars. We don't have to design new computer systems. We have in place all the bits and pieces we need.
We have a wonderful industry that has always responded to problems. And the industry will respond in a cost-effective way to get the job done. What we need to do is make certain we can stay focused to get that done. This is not rocket science. It's paying attention to detail.