A bit of AMFA news

[twuer]

Just thought I would pass on a bit of new information regarding AMFA. . .

NWA-In Minneapolis you have to have 1990 seniority to even work there. Here''s the kicker. . .an exception has been made for two 1995 AMFA Reps that were given Super Seniority. (seem fair??)

Could this be right?? Seems to be. . .time will tell. Go AMFA!!!!!!!

 

[Bob Owens]

I remember back when I started in this industry in the early eighties layoffs were common. But massive long term concessionary contracts were not. (The TWU set the precident with the 1983 B-scale contract.) I remember working at Capitol Air around the time of the PATCO strike. Capitol was hiring laid off UAL and AA guys. The junior man at UAL-JFK had 25 years seniority. They all got back to the airline that laid them off.

The question is, would you rather be laid off for a short period of time and make good while you are working in this industry or settle for lousy pay, lousy hours, no holidays, as little as one weeks vacation along with a lot of other concessions because you are too much of a coward to stand up to the company and demand more?

If the company lays you off, they have to call you back if they want to increase or restore service. So an improving economy will get you your job back. If you agree to work for less, an improved economy does not improve your condition, basically you are stuck in the recession even if the rest of the economy soars. Didnt you learn anything from the 90s? Over the long haul we at AA, who remain "employed" are likely to earn less than those that have been laid off at NWA.

As far as the super seniority, how about Bakala and Kerrigan? The airline they worked for went belly up over 10 years ago. I believe both are over the age of retirement and neither have worked on the floor since the regulated era came to an end over 20 years ago. Planes that are being retired today came into service years after they last worked on the ramp. How could they possibly, after 20 years of getting six figure salaries, have any perception of what todays workers face?

 

[Bob Owens]

AMFA has collected 7039 cards.

How many more do they really need to hit that 50% +1?

Figure with all the retirements and resignations they must be near that now. At 562 we had around 30 guys from maint retire this year, and so far 5 resignations (with more likely). We are a young local, other stations probably had even higher percentages, figure by the time the year is out we will probably see at least 1500 retirements if not more and if the economy recovers even more resignations. That means that AMFA is likely to have enough cards to get a vote before the year is out.

For all the bad things you say about AMFA one fact remains, they have not been ousted anywhere by the TWU, the IAM or the Teamsters. In fact they have ousted those unions at several carriers, and apparently there are no drives of any consideration at any of the places where AMFA went in to get them out. They are the fastest growing union in the industry.

Why do you think that is?

 

[twuer]

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On 7/28/2003 4:55:54 PM RV4 wrote:

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On 7/28/2003 11:35:12 AM twuer wrote:


Just thought I would pass on a bit of new information regarding AMFA. . .

NWA-In Minneapolis you have to have 1990 seniority to even work there. Here's the kicker. . .an exception has been made for two 1995 AMFA Reps that were given Super Seniority. (seem fair??)

Could this be right?? Seems to be. . .time will tell
Go AMFA!!!!!!!
----------------​

SHOW US THE PROOF!
BECAUSE THIS IS A LIE!

----------------​

EASY NOW!!! I will find something in writing for you and post it as soon as I get it.

 

[twuer]

Bob,
You have worked in this industry for a long time and I applaud you for that but what about the guy (or girl) who doesn't have as much seniority as you? Say 6 or 7 years worth. What do you tell him/her when he gets his layoff papers, when all this time you are preaching "get protection join AMFA". My goodness, in Minneapolis there are people who have worked there for over 10 years and are losing their jobs. How do you call that union representation better than what we now have in TUL? I don't see your reasoning. You keep trying to push AMFA but you can't produce anything, other than the "mechanics at other airlines have voted to change to AMFA". So they have been suckered into changing. And now you want to do the same thing here. You are promising something you can't guarantee. I don't have the seniority you do. But I bet I have some of the same bills you have. I need my job. Don't take advantage of a bad situation and make promises that can't be kept.

(your comments)
The question is, would you rather be laid off for a short period of time and make good while you are working in this industry or settle for lousy pay, lousy hours, no holidays, as little as one weeks vacation along with a lot of other concessions because you are too much of a coward to stand up to the company and demand more?

Are you kidding me??????? And what kind of job would that be?????? I don't understand your reasoning.

(As far as the super seniority, how about Bakala and Kerrigan?) Sorry but I don't know who they are? But they are certainly none of my concern. I live in the present.

It is not all about the A&P mechanic who has worked for 10 years or more. What kind of seniority do the majority of the people you are trying to get to sign cards have? Do you give them statistics from AMFA as well? Just wondering...

 

[RV4]

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On 7/28/2003 11:35:12 AM twuer wrote:


Just thought I would pass on a bit of new information regarding AMFA. . .

NWA-In Minneapolis you have to have 1990 seniority to even work there. Here's the kicker. . .an exception has been made for two 1995 AMFA Reps that were given Super Seniority. (seem fair??)

Could this be right?? Seems to be. . .time will tell
Go AMFA!!!!!!!
----------------​

SHOW US THE PROOF!
BECAUSE THIS IS A LIE!

 

[Bob Owens]

----------------
On 7/28/2003 4:59:18 PM twuer wrote:

Bob,
You have worked in this industry for a long time and I applaud you for that but what about the guy (or girl) who doesn't have as much seniority as you? Say 6 or 7 years worth. What do you tell him/her when he gets his layoff papers, when all this time you are preaching "get protection join AMFA".

Well I see guys like that every day. What do I tell them? If we are to ever have a future in this industry we need a major overhaul of the labor movement, so go ahead, fill out a card. In fact I spoke to one such (laid off) worker today who said that he appreciated the fact that we were not volunteering to work OT. I saw him fill out a card and take 10 more for other laid workers who were working with him at his new job.
My goodness, in Minneapolis there are people who have worked there for over 10 years and are losing their jobs. How do you call that union representation better than what we now have in TUL? I don't see your reasoning.

We had people here with over 10 years that have quit because of this contract, and several other that have made their intentions to do so public. Whats worse, being laid off temporarily after 10 years or permanently quitting after putting in 10 years of nights, weekends and holidays?
You keep trying to push AMFA but you can't produce anything, other than the "mechanics at other airlines have voted to change to AMFA". So they have been suckered into changing. And now you want to do the same thing here. You are promising something you can't guarantee.

And most of those "suckers" are making more per hour than us, still get paid holidays, have a least two weeks vacation etc.
I have promised nothing. I have only maintained that the current structure is unacceptable.
I don't have the seniority you do. But I bet I have some of the same bills you have. I need my job. Don't take advantage of a bad situation and make promises that can't be kept.
We all need our jobs. But sometimes you have to have a pair and stand up for what you are worth.
Again, what promises have I made? I advocate change because the last twenty years have shown me that our present course is a dead end. Over the last twenty years I have seen this cycle of crisis and concessions repeated over and over again. The concessions are kept in place through the boom times and the International says "we will get em next time" but that time never comes. Before you know it you too will have twenty years in the business and have sacrificed a lot with little to show for it. This is life, and you got to have b@!!$, you have to face it, challenge it and take a chance, otherwise you are really just a slave.
If you truly beleive in unionism then explain to me what the advantage is to having workers that do the same job, in the same locality, split between unions that are not focused on either them or their industry? Have you read the SEUIs paper "United We Win?" Its on our website. the SEIU is the largest union in the country, hardly a hotbed of "union busting".
(your comments)
The question is, would you rather be laid off for a short period of time and make good while you are working in this industry or settle for lousy pay, lousy hours, no holidays, as little as one weeks vacation along with a lot of other concessions because you are too much of a coward to stand up to the company and demand more?

Are you kidding me??????? And what kind of job would that be?????? I don't understand your reasoning.
If you were old enough then you would know that it used to be the airlines. You made good money but until you had enough seniority you had to expect layoffs. ( I've been there, I worked for around six different airlines before I was 25.In 1982 I used to get $15/hr at my part time job at NYAIR) However, even with the frequent layoffs they made more back then in real money than today. They started closer to top pay and topped out in two years. In the meantime they collected unemployment or worked other jobs.

(As far as the super seniority, how about Bakala and Kerrigan?) Sorry but I don't know who they are? But they are certainly none of my concern. I live in the present.
Thats really sad. Mike Bakala is the assistant ATD Director of the TWU and John Kerrigan is the Treasurer of the TWU. Do you know who Jim Little is? These are his bosses.

It is not all about the A&P mechanic who has worked for 10 years or more. What kind of seniority do the majority of the people you are trying to get to sign cards have? Do you give them statistics from AMFA as well? Just wondering...
I give them honest information, warts and all from all sides. Dont allow people to manipulate you through fear. Voting should be your most cherished right.The fact is that an election puts the TWU into the position where they have to justify why you should pick them instead of someone else(AMFA). They will have to come up with real reasons, not just use fear and lies, for you to pick them. What is wrong with making them come to you for support? What is there to fear about an election? Dont you feel that as an adult that you are fit to make such choices? Dont buy the line that by not having an election that you are making your choice, if thats the case then why arent all elections cancelled unless a majority call for an election? Elections bring debates and the exchange of ideas, an essential part of democracy, and the chance to make changes or maintain the status quo. You can always vote for the TWU in the election after hearing what both sides have to offer. At the very least the TWU might give members more control of the contract, but unless they are threatened with an election then why would they alter things that suit themselves very well?

I have read where CIO says that if you vote for AMFA you are voting away your jobs. How is that when Tulsa would still have the majority? If AMFA came back with an inferior agreement then you could reject the agreement and have a legal right, and electoral muscle to recall whoever negotiated the deal. With the TWU Jim Little could sign away all your jobs and you dont have the right to vote against it or remove him. Whats to stop the company from cutting a deal with Little to spin off Tulsa into AMR services in exchange for recognizing the TWU as the bargaining agent for the agents and clerks, kind of like how they did with Eagle around the time of the 95 debacle where A&P mechanics were removed from the shops ( after being told that they would be replaced through attrition) and replaced with lower paid SRPs? The Eagle mechanics that used to be here in NY said they never had an election for the TWU, all of a sudden they were just in a union.

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[AAmech]

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On 7/28/2003 3:07:04 PM Bob Owens wrote:


I remember back when I started in this industry in the early eighties layoffs were common. But massive long term concessionary contracts were not. (The TWU set the precident with the 1983 B-scale contract.) I remember working at Capitol Air around the time of the PATCO strike. Capitol was hiring laid off UAL and AA guys. The junior man at UAL-JFK had 25 years seniority. They all got back to the airline that laid them off.

The question is, would you rather be laid off for a short period of time and make good while you are working in this industry or settle for lousy pay, lousy hours, no holidays, as little as one weeks vacation along with a lot of other concessions because you are too much of a coward to stand up to the company and demand more?

If the company lays you off, they have to call you back if they want to increase or restore service. So an improving economy will get you your job back. If you agree to work for less, an improved economy does not improve your condition, basically you are stuck in the recession even if the rest of the economy soars. Didnt you learn anything from the 90s? Over the long haul we at AA, who remain "employed" are likely to earn less than those that have been laid off at NWA.

As far as the super seniority, how about Bakala and Kerrigan? The airline they worked for went belly up over 10 years ago. I believe both are over the age of retirement and neither have worked on the floor since the regulated era came to an end over 20 years ago. Planes that are being retired today came into service years after they last worked on the ramp. How could they possibly, after 20 years of getting six figure salaries, have any perception of what todays workers face?

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Listening to Bob should send a chill down the spines of any mechanic. Permanant Job Giveaways ARE NOT LAYOFFS! This is a common amfa tactic. Negotiate a concessionary job giveaway, then tell everyone "its just a layoff, you'll all be coming back when things pick up". Unfortunantly for us amfa has set a dangerous and deadly (for our profession) precident of giving up OUR work for 30 pieces of silver! At least we can get back our pay and benifits. When you give jobs away they'r gone for good. They're no better than Judas!

 

[RV4]

----------------
On 7/28/2003 5:07:11 PM twuer wrote:

----------------
On 7/28/2003 4:55:54 PM RV4 wrote:

----------------
On 7/28/2003 11:35:12 AM twuer wrote:


Just thought I would pass on a bit of new information regarding AMFA. . .

NWA-In Minneapolis you have to have 1990 seniority to even work there. Here's the kicker. . .an exception has been made for two 1995 AMFA Reps that were given Super Seniority. (seem fair??)

Could this be right?? Seems to be. . .time will tell
Go AMFA!!!!!!!
----------------​

SHOW US THE PROOF!
BECAUSE THIS IS A LIE!

----------------​

EASY NOW!!! I will find something in writing for you and post it as soon as I get it.


----------------​

You are going to show us proof that no AMFA represented employee at MSP was hired after 1990?
And that some special deal was cut to save two union reps...
OK I WILL WAIT FOR THAT!

 

[RV4]

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On 7/28/2003 912 PM AAmech wrote:




Listening to Bob should send a chill down the spines of any mechanic. Permanant Job Giveaways ARE NOT LAYOFFS! This is a common amfa tactic. Negotiate a concessionary job giveaway, then tell everyone "its just a layoff, you'll all be coming back when things pick up". Unfortunantly for us amfa has set a dangerous and deadly (for our profession) precident of giving up OUR work for 30 pieces of silver! At least we can get back our pay and benifits. When you give jobs away they'r gone for good. They're no better than Judas!
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In your almighty wisdom, please tell us all, if the NWA jobs are permanent losses agreed to by AMFA, then why is there scheduled arbitration hearings regarding ALL RIF's which were all executing using force majeure? Why do the TWU supporters claim AMFA lays-off workers? Isn't that the domain of the employer?

 

[RUM@AA]

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On 7/28/2003 912 PM AAmech wrote:



Listening to Bob should send a chill down the spines of any mechanic.  Permanant Job Giveaways ARE NOT LAYOFFS!    This is a common amfa tactic.    Negotiate a concessionary job giveaway, then tell everyone "its just a layoff,  you'll all be coming back when things pick up".    Unfortunantly for us amfa has set a dangerous and deadly (for our profession) precident of giving up OUR work for 30 pieces of silver!  At least we can get back our pay and benifits.  When you give jobs away they'r gone for good. They're no better than Judas!

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Listening to AAmech should send your lunch up from your gut. What "Permanant Job Giveaways"? The Singapore work? NWA 747 and DC10s have been going to Singapore for EIGHT YEARS!!!. AMFA'S been there four. Most NWA layoffs were due to reduced schedules due to 9/11 and fleet retirements.
You see, when the economy began to tank, ( March, 2000) NWA reacted. They downsized and retired older aircraft, causing layoffs. Meanwhile, AA sat on their hands crying that they were losing 4 million a day. That's why NWA now has 2.6 Billion in cash and AA is crying poor. 9/11 made it worse and the war in Iraq caused even more layoffs. AMFA has arbitration hearings set because NWA did layoff a greater percentage of mechanics than their flight schedule reduction.
You TWU idiots want to blame everything at NWA on AMFA. What about all the pilots and flight attendants that were layed off? Is that AMFA's fault too?
17000 total layoffs at NWA can't all be mechanics. And just what is the contract language in the AMFA contract that allowed all this so called out sourcing? 38% limit? BS! There was NO LIMIT under the IAM so how can agreeing to a limit cause outsourcing? That's illogical.
WAKE UP!

 

[j7915]

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On 7/28/2003 9:23:13 PM RV4 wrote:

----------------

On 7/28/2003 5:07:11 PM twuer wrote:

----------------

On 7/28/2003 4:55:54 PM RV4 wrote:

----------------

On 7/28/2003 11:35:12 AM twuer wrote:



Just thought I would pass on a bit of new information regarding AMFA. . .

 

NWA-In Minneapolis you have to have 1990 seniority to even work there.  Here's the kicker. . .an exception has been made for two 1995 AMFA Reps that were given Super Seniority. (seem fair??) 

 

Could this be right??  Seems to be. . .time will tell

Go AMFA!!!!!!!
----------------​

SHOW US THE PROOF!

BECAUSE THIS IS A LIE!


----------------​

EASY NOW!!!  I will find something in writing for you and post it as soon as I get it. 

  


----------------​

You are going to show us proof that no AMFA represented employee at MSP was hired after 1990?

And that some special deal was cut to save two union reps...

OK I WILL WAIT FOR THAT!

----------------​

RV4, read the statement, it does not say no mechanics were hired since 1990. They could not have been AMFA either because no one there became an associate until what, 1999?

What the statement said was that you have to have 1990 or better seniority to get into MSP. Now is that so hard to understand? That is like saying at TUL you better have at least x number of years or been hired prior to some given date to make inspection for example.

Is this word playing what we would have to put up with if AMFA were to make it at AA? If it is, why did do you hate Bill Clinton so much, you are both on the same wave length debating the meaning of "is".

If you don't like that Bill take the other one, Gates, he also likes to question the meaning of simple words.

 

[Bob Owens]

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On 7/28/2003 912 PM AAmech wrote:

----------------​

Listening to Bob should send a chill down the spines of any mechanic. Permanant Job Giveaways ARE NOT LAYOFFS! This is a common amfa tactic. Negotiate a concessionary job giveaway, then tell everyone "its just a layoff, you'll all be coming back when things pick up". Unfortunantly for us amfa has set a dangerous and deadly (for our profession) precident of giving up OUR work for 30 pieces of silver! At least we can get back our pay and benifits. When you give jobs away they'r gone for good. They're no better than Judas!

----------------​

No union has given away more A&P mechanics work than the TWU. R&D, deicing, SRPs, OSMs are all fine examples of the TWU's committment to lowering the demand for A&P mechanics. To the TWU it does not matter who gets our work as long as they pay dues.
AA Mech-do you still actively work on airplanes? When was the last time you signed a log book?

 

[AAmech]

Sorry it bothers you RUM but your amfa made and continues to make some HUGE promises. Bringing ALL work back in house! 60-100 bucks an hour pay! 100% retro pay! A union "like the pilots" have! Respect!! I see planes in Singapore I EXPECT it to be a so-called "Industrial" unions fault. Not a powerful "CRAFT UNION LIKE THE PILOTS HAVE!!!

 

[AAmech]

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On 7/29/2003 4:02:59 AM Bob Owens wrote:

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AA Mech-do you still actively work on airplanes? When was the last time you signed a log book?

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Ah Heck! My handle must have been the clue! Yes I do work on airplanes. Don't sign Log Book too often although I did sign off an entry last week. I've signed a mountain of E58's, ECO's and Pattern Cards.