44 replies to this topic

[SparrowHawk]

777 fixer, on 27 January 2012 - 10:52 AM, said:

You can't have it both ways. You cannot say you would applaud the efforts of people standing up for their rights and then turn around and say you agree with Rand Paul's take on the subject. It's either one or the other.

It does not take a genius to figure out why Rand Paul views that subject the way he does. He was never called boy or the n word, he was'nt forced to used a different entrance, or had his skull cracked open just because, or was arrested by some hick sheriff becasue he did not sit in the back of the bus. No, Rand Paul is just some spolied brat who had all the creature comforts of growing up a uppermiddle class white kid.

Actually I can have it any way I like!

Just because you may not agree with every aspect of a philosophy does not mean one must maintain a strict ideology on a given issue. IOW, An act like the Civil Rights Act trumps my concerns over the modest loss of individual liberty. For me it's real simple. If a rule or law results in more individual Liberty for more people then I'm in favor of it. In the case of the Civil Rights Act even Stevie Wonder can see that increasing Civil Rights of a large group far outweighs all other consideration.

Even though different from the basic premise of Individual Liberty and Natural Law the end result of more freedom, more liberty for more people is consistent. This is typical throughout history. The debate of where the line is drawn between the rights of a society/government versus of the rights of the individual is healthy. Blind obedience to a political party or ideology is unhealthy.

[777 fixer]

SparrowHawk, on 27 January 2012 - 11:11 AM, said:

Blind obedience to a political party or ideology is unhealthy.

You might want to tell that to yourself.

[SparrowHawk]

777 fixer, on 27 January 2012 - 12:31 PM, said:

You might want to tell that to yourself.

I DO have long held beliefs. When I started out getting interested in politics I was a typical East Coast "Rockefeller Republican". Over time I gradually became more and more of a Libertarian.

One of the things I don't tow the Libertarian line is in case of Natural Disasters. Most Libertarians don't think FEMA is an appropriate role for the Federal Government. My feeling is the role of the Federal Government is to protect our citizens. To me, this would include not only foreign invasion but to our response in times of natural disaster.

During Katrina, IMO the US Government should have came in like gang busters and told those two twits Landreau and Nagel to GTFOOTW and taken charge and saved lives, property and infrastructure wherever possible. Similarly I'm very Pro-Choice, but feel it's a state issue which differs from the position of Dr Paul and frankly the issue is as divisive as it is in any other political party

[Dog Wonder]

SparrowHawk, on 27 January 2012 - 01:11 PM, said:

During Katrina, IMO the US Government should have came in like gang busters and told those two twits Landreau and Nagel to GTFOOTW and taken charge and saved lives, property and infrastructure wherever possible.

Landreau and Nagel?

The US government, Army Corps of Engineers, was a primary cause of the damage caused by Katrina. Michael Brown was in charge of the US Government, FEMA, emergency effort and couldn't even dress himself.

Is that the US Government you are talking about?

[SparrowHawk]

Dog Wonder, on 27 January 2012 - 01:28 PM, said:

Landreau and Nagel?

The US government, Army Corps of Engineers, was a primary cause of the damage caused by Katrina. Michael Brown was in charge of the US Government, FEMA, emergency effort and couldn't even dress himself.

Is that the US Government you are talking about?

Governor Mary Landreau and Mayor of New Orleans Ray Nagel. Bush is on record of holding back when it was time to go in citing a concern regarding not trampling the "locals" who were Democrats. Michael Brown was an issue and the whole FEMA response was poor at best in the beginning.

To blame just the Army Corp of Engineers is at best a surface evaluation. Louisiana, for better or worse is the only state that bases their laws on French Common Law. Anyone who has ever tried to navigate the byzantine world of LA politics knows full well that things are almost never as they seem. Yes the Corp built the levees, but they sure as balls didn't set up the various water districts that were responsible for the levees. Some which eventually broke for a variety of reasons, primary among them is deferred maintenance and the graft and corruption associated with the water districts.

Additionally, Katrina is but one example of the US Government failing to do what I feel is a basic task under the COTUS. To me "Provide for the common defense" includes natural disaster.

[Dog Wonder]

SparrowHawk, on 27 January 2012 - 01:54 PM, said:

Governor Mary Landreau and Mayor of New Orleans Ray Nagel. Bush is on record of holding back when it was time to go in citing a concern regarding not trampling the "locals" who were Democrats. Michael Brown was an issue and the whole FEMA response was poor at best in the beginning.

To blame just the Army Corp of Engineers is at best a surface evaluation. Louisiana, for better or worse is the only state that bases their laws on French Common Law. Anyone who has ever tried to navigate the byzantine world of LA politics knows full well that things are almost never as they seem. Yes the Corp built the levees, but they sure as balls didn't set up the various water districts that were responsible for the levees. Some which eventually broke for a variety of reasons, primary among them is deferred maintenance and the graft and corruption associated with the water districts.

Additionally, Katrina is but one example of the US Government failing to do what I feel is a basic task under the COTUS. To me "Provide for the common defense" includes natural disaster.

The Governor was Kathleen Blanco, the Mayor of New Orleans was Ray Nagin. Mary Landrieu was, and is, a US Senator. Bush was holding back because he was on vacation. Brown was a partisan appointed idiot.

Louisiana originally based its legal system on French civil, not common, law. Both are part of the Lousiana legal system. Neither had to do with the Army Corps of Engineers inadequate design and construction of the levees, the cause of all but one of fifty-some failures and overtopping of the protective system. The one due to maintenance, the overtopping of a levee on the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet, MRGO, This failure was due to inadequate dredging of MRGO by, damn, the Army Corps of Engineers

Suffice to say your understanding of Katrina and its aftermath is as astute as your grasp of the facts involved.

Sorry for a Sparrowhawk length post.

[SparrowHawk]

Dog Wonder, on 27 January 2012 - 02:36 PM, said:

The Governor was Kathleen Blanco, the Mayor of New Orleans was Ray Nagin. Mary Landrieu was, and is, a US Senator. Bush was holding back because he was on vacation. Brown was a partisan appointed idiot.

Louisiana originally based its legal system on French civil, not common, law. Both are part of the Lousiana legal system. Neither had to do with the Army Corps of Engineers inadequate design and construction of the levees, the cause of all but one of fifty-some failures and overtopping of the protective system. The one due to maintenance, the overtopping of a levee on the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet, MRGO, This failure was due to inadequate dredging of MRGO by, damn, the Army Corps of Engineers

Suffice to say your understanding of Katrina and its aftermath is as astute as your grasp of the facts involved.

Sorry for a Sparrowhawk length post.

My bad on the Landreau/Blanco mix up. I did find an interesting timeline of events. Not seeing anything regarding poorly designed levees as yet. Not that I'm done looking. Civil law derives itself from Common Law. So that hair was nicely split.

Katrina Timeline

This from http://www.hurricanekatrinarelief.com

Quote

Why did the levees break in New Orleans?
On the contrary of what you might have heard, the levees did not break in New Orleans. The levees were actually able to withstand the storm surge of Hurricane Katrina. What happened was that the levees were replaced in some areas of the city with a wall approximately 2 feet thick that fell during there hurricane. These walls were built in order to widen the canal, but they could not withstand Katrina’s storm surge. Therefore, it was the replacement walls that broke, NOT the levees.

More from the website

[delldude]

Dog Wonder, on 27 January 2012 - 01:28 PM, said:

Landreau and Nagel?

The US government, Army Corps of Engineers, was a primary cause of the damage caused by Katrina. Michael Brown was in charge of the US Government, FEMA, emergency effort and couldn't even dress himself.

Is that the US Government you are talking about?

Funny, I thought Gov Blanco refused GW's offer of declaring a disaster area 3 days ahead of time so assets could be in place when it hit?

And Ray Nagin didn't give a mandatory evac notice until some 30 hours after landfall.