36 replies to this topic

[swamt]

AvTech04, on 21 October 2011 - 10:27 AM, said:

@SWAMT, Stop trying to save face by calling this false information!!! I know FOR A FACT this is accurate! I didn't post this anywhere else because I decided to create a whole new thread so this could be made public!! If your SWA's Mechanics AMFA committee is not and will not share this information with you then that's your problem.. And this is why we (meaning airtran mechanics committee) walked out of the negotiations and refused to reschedule until after the pilots vote goes through because it's obvious SWA's Mechanic committee isn't serious about integrating the 2 workforces, which they admitted during the last meeting. The next negotiation meeting would of been scheduled for Nov 4th, but after all of our time that was put in was wasted, we (Airtran's Committee) decided not reconvene until they are ready to seriously sit down and talk...

it's obvious that you are trying to discredit me for whatever reason, to save face, to not allow this to go pubic, whatever the reason may be won't stop me from making this information public! Besides, I couldn't in my wildest dreams make up a story like this and expect anyone to believe unless it were true so you can save your attempted battering for someone else.

Please note, none of what has been discussed in ANY of these threads or forums has actually been placed on paper officially, including this current thread. This is just the information of the "talks'' (because we obviously can't actually call them negotiations anymore) between the SWA AMFA mechanic committee and the Aitran Mechanics committee.

*
Again, in my phone call it was also discussed about future dates. They are trying to get 3 future dates which was Nov 2 thru the 4th. He also said it is being considered to be away from Dallas, off company property. He even said some other dates later down the road were brought up sometime during the week of Nov 14th thru 18th. So to say that they did not reschedual is false. It was also said that nobody walked out of nego. He said it was cut short do to something nobody had any control of, which talls me maybe the company had something come up, BUT, I don't know for sure. I will respond to my own post (as I have in the past) if any of my post differ from the truth. It could be this weekend or it could be after the weekend.

[southwind]

Gotta love it, when "Union Brethren" can come together and sing Kumbaya !

[AvTech04]

Re-post from SWAMT's thread:

View Postswamt, on 22 October 2011 - 12:07 AM, said:
SWAMT Original post
-It's posted on AMFA's web site that the new dates are in fact set for the 3rd and 4th of Nov. There's also an update. Not much info in the update but it is there along with the new dates. I again would like to say, please only post the facts. Stop the false postings in order to have a genda.
No they (AT) did not walk away or out of nego. A personal complication came up on the AT side that needed attention right away, I will leave at that as it is not my place to post what happened. If one of the AT guys would like to add anything to it then please do.
I was told that if this AvTech guy from AT was an observer then he would have known full well that these dates were discussed prior to everyone ending talks on Thursday. And the reason that the AT guys had to leave was also discussed at the table.


AvTech 04 Reply post-
I see what you are trying to do, You're trying to steer people off the point at hand by analyzing and breaking down my post. trying to ploy their interest away from the fact that the AMFA Committee not only switched from percentages to years but is now asking for 12 years to everyone in SWA Maint's seniority. Yes, the Airtran committee is keeping their composure even though the SWA Committee has tried and tested it multiple times. So, a personal matter sounds like a less abrasive reason to leave the talks after an insulting rebuttal offer. There's no personal agenda here except that I want this over and done with! As I stated multiple times, the information I have posted is not false so please spare your accusations. Yes, there were dates discussed, as I stated in a previous post, but nothing affirmatively scheduled.

The point of all these postings by SWAMT is to discredit and veer everyone's attention away from the facts. The fact is, after weeks of deliberation and meetings between the Airtran Committee and the SWA AMFA Committee, mostly just the airtran committee seeing as the SWA Committee has pretty much just sat there with the least amount of interest possible, the SWA Committee changed the entire negotiation. In other words, they are pretty much back to sqaure one! The talks for weeks were about % increase on the SWA side and fences, now, our of no where, the SWA Committee wants to eliminate the % increase and go with a years increase for all their members, asking for a 12 year boost in seniority. Making a 1 year SWA Mechanic a 13 year SWA Mechanic!! Virtually stapling the Airtran seniority list to the bottom in reverse. That also gives the most senior Mechanic at SWA 12 more years seniority than Herb and the company named Southwest!! lol, I don't have the SWA Seniority list in front of me at the moment, but if I am not mistaken, a 12 year boost will give the top 10 mechanics at SWA more seniority than the company has even existed... That's what the SWA Committee brought to the table!

Allow me to put this into retrospect:
(most prevalent offers made by the SWA Committee)

1st, Staple Airtran seniority list to the bottom 0 years. - didn't fly
2nd, Airtran loses 80% seniority - didn't fly
3rd, SWA gains 80 % seniority - Same as above??
4th, SWA gains 70 % seniority with fences and stipulations - was in works until!
5th, SWA gains 12 yrs seniority instead of %'s with same fences and stipulations - currently on the table

Those are the most prevalent rebuttal offers made by SWA Committee.

[swamt]

AvTech04, on 21 October 2011 - 11:03 AM, said:

I will reiterate something that SWAMT did point out, this is not the official final offer from AMFA, this was the final offer made after 2 days of negotiations. Like I stated above, there has not been any official offer as of yet, these have been mere talks and caucusing back and forth between the Airtan committee and the AMFA committee. This may not be the last meeting held but because of the ridiculousness of the 12 yr boost offer, it made it even more apparent that the AMFA committee was not serious during the "talks". My apologize if I mis communicated this information, I am, afterall, typing all of this from my phone so it's a little more difficult to be descriptive in my post, I will make a better attempt to post as transparent and descriptive as possible. But, never the less, If SWAMT did in fact speak to a creditable source, then he/she should know that the information is not false! They are now asking for a 12 yr boost in seniority.

* Thank you for taking the time to clerify. Believe me, I appreciate it alot. My phone has actually simmered down now. I also now see that you meant it was the last offer made during the last nego. I will tell you my phone rang non-stop from folks asking why we were throwing out the last and final. And now everyone also understands why the AT guys had to leave early. Again, I won't post here the details. As far as the 12 years you are 100% correct. Now, the way I understand it is, the next meeting will be the first week of Nov. and I'm sure the AT guys will then get the verbal offer in writing, as you are correct that the original concerning the 12 years was only a discussion at that time do to the AT guys had to leave.
* Just a tid-bit here; people always get completely bent out of shape with offers going back and forth. Until one of the 2 sides says "Last and Best Final Offer" it's all about nego. Send over a rebuttle. Offer something different. I was told that a member on the AT side did in fact ask if the 12 years was a final number, and AMFA's attorney said that this is our first one with years. This is nego's, throw something back and explain why.
* I believe the company is scheduling this off propperty to keep the nego going longer into the nights in order to come up with an agreement ASAP. But don't let the company push any of us into something sooner than we (the mechanics) are ready for. I say, hey, lets watch to see what the pilots do, and then continue, or not continue depending on the pilots. I mean why bother, if the pilots vote theirs down, then according to GK the companies will be kept seperate, so why bother? Know what I mean? I personally think the pilots will vote theirs in, but you never know.
* Again, thanks for the clearification...

[AvTech04]

buscador, on 21 October 2011 - 05:05 AM, said:

Thanks for dumbing it down for me,, I am not a mech and obviously too stupid to understand the complexity of your contract and negotiations. Whew.. now that we got my intellectual deficiencies out of the way!!

YOU say YOUR committee of junior ,, well you can stop there,, I may not be a mech but I can tell you That all 8000 AT employees are Junior in my eyes.. not one would be senior to me,, unless of course you went with relative seniority which I have heard many AT people mention(not surprising),,, There is a lot off arrogance on both sides I get that,, but the fact that SWA people get nothing personally,,you dont get.. Too many.. it feels like a robbery in progress,,, Not one AT person can or will go above me but I believe in fairness for the ones who have followed me and have put in their time,, if AT bought out another airline I would love to hear the song you sang

I would have to agree with you .. that seems like a ridiculous offer... because SWA definitely wouldnt put them up 12 steps on the pay scale,, I said it before, ,#1 take your seniority and your current contract and Hold it for 10 years #2 give up something(seniority) and get the financial upgrades....one or the other,,(again mine or your opinion is only worth a vote)

I would not and cant ever agree that DOH is fair to the purchasing airline,, in this deal or any other,, The stronger company should have the upper hand and protect the employees that have made it so,, not by shafting AT by any means but DOH cmon,, do you plan on leaving at least the PIE tin so the swa people can smell what flavor it was,,

lots of things I dont understand,,, why or how amfa would offer something like that,, I dont understand why AT guys think they should get DOH+benefits etc, I dont understand how the SWA employees get anything out of this deal(personally or on payday).. I understand that both sides need to give up something,,,ohh the attitudes,, Only time will tell,, Nov 7th will be interesting

I DO understand that I cant sleep,, ranting helps,,lol..hey at least you have responses,, seems like everyone else is tuning you out..

Just to sum up and create a quick reply. No one said the the SWA Mechanics wouldn't get anything out of this deal, the company has yet to make a proposal to the SWA Mechanics because obviously the company wants to avoid that until absolutely necessary, so they are just sitting on the side lines to see if an agreement can be made without having to bribe anyone to do it. Airtran isn't asking for DOH + pay + bennies, they are only asking for DOH, if it has to ride with 2 different contracts then so be it! AMFA will have to renegotiate the Airtran Mechanics contract with SWA down the line anyways... And DOH is the only fair way to merge the two work groups. Yes, I know it was a buy out but it doesn't change the fact that the Union contracts still states that it is a merger of work groups whether it be a buy out or merger of 2 different airlines, so legally it has to be done like a merger which imposes the M&B and the RWA thus forcing the work groups to be merged in a fair and equitable manner, as stated by the SWA CEO himself Gary Kelly. Virtually every other Mechanic work group that has ever been merged together has always done so with DOH.

As a history lesson, Airtran has bought another Airline! ValueJet purchased Airtran and continued under the Airtran name. All work groups merged with DOH... SWA is just being very unreasonable. And as a final note, Airtran Mechanics did concede in a loss of some seniority for the sake of respect to our SWA counterparts, the very first offer we made was NOT a DOH integration. The SWA Committee still turned it down...

Lastly, and this was supposed to be quick, I meant to disrespect towards you when I said dumbing it down in my earlier post, it was not intended to insult your intelligence, it was simply a saying I use frequently in order to explain something more simply. So, my apologizes if it was insulting in anyway.

[swamt]

AvTech04, on 22 October 2011 - 03:50 PM, said:

Re-post from SWAMT's thread:

View Postswamt, on 22 October 2011 - 12:07 AM, said:
SWAMT Original post
-It's posted on AMFA's web site that the new dates are in fact set for the 3rd and 4th of Nov. There's also an update. Not much info in the update but it is there along with the new dates. I again would like to say, please only post the facts. Stop the false postings in order to have a genda.
No they (AT) did not walk away or out of nego. A personal complication came up on the AT side that needed attention right away, I will leave at that as it is not my place to post what happened. If one of the AT guys would like to add anything to it then please do.
I was told that if this AvTech guy from AT was an observer then he would have known full well that these dates were discussed prior to everyone ending talks on Thursday. And the reason that the AT guys had to leave was also discussed at the table.


AvTech 04 Reply post-
I see what you are trying to do, You're trying to steer people off the point at hand by analyzing and breaking down my post. trying to ploy their interest away from the fact that the AMFA Committee not only switched from percentages to years but is now asking for 12 years to everyone in SWA Maint's seniority. Yes, the Airtran committee is keeping their composure even though the SWA Committee has tried and tested it multiple times. So, a personal matter sounds like a less abrasive reason to leave the talks after an insulting rebuttal offer. There's no personal agenda here except that I want this over and done with! As I stated multiple times, the information I have posted is not false so please spare your accusations. Yes, there were dates discussed, as I stated in a previous post, but nothing affirmatively scheduled, as you are trying to make it seem.

The point of all these postings by SWAMT is to discredit and veer everyone's attention away from the facts. The fact is, after weeks of deliberation and meetings between the Airtran Committee and the SWA AMFA Committee, mostly just the airtran committee seeing as the SWA Committee has pretty much just sat there with the least amount of interest possible, the SWA Committee changed the entire negotiation. In other words, they are pretty much back to sqaure one! The talks for weeks were about % increase on the SWA side and fences, now, our of no where, the SWA Committee wants to eliminate the % increase and go with a years increase for all their members, asking for a 12 year boost in seniority. Making a 1 year SWA Mechanic a 13 year SWA Mechanic!! Virtually stapling the Airtran seniority list to the bottom in reverse. That also gives the most senior Mechanic at SWA 12 more years seniority than Herb and the company named Southwest!! lol, I don't have the SWA Seniority list in front of me at the moment, but if I am not mistaken, a 12 year boost will give the top 10 mechanics at SWA more seniority than the company has even existed... That's what the SWA Committee brought to the table!

Allow me to put this into retrospect:
(most prevalent offers made by the SWA Committee)

1st, Staple Airtran seniority list to the bottom 0 years. - didn't fly
2nd, Airtran loses 80% seniority - didn't fly
3rd, SWA gains 80 % seniority - Same as above??
4th, SWA gains 70 % seniority with fences and stipulations - was in works until!
5th, SWA gains 12 yrs seniority instead of %'s with same fences and stipulations - currently on the table

Those are the most prevalent rebuttal offers made by SWA Committee.

* 2nd and 3rd listed above are in fact completely different. Run the numbers and you will see the difference. Adding a percentage of senority to SWA is a teamster gimmick and will not fly. Never did I not say anywhere that AMFA did not change from % to years. They in fact have, as per the membership, and will continue in this manner.
* Speaking of changing tunes: yes AMFA did change their tune from % to years. As did the AT guys go from a 25% reduction in senority to a 10% after their members reamed their asses when they returned to back. The EXACT thing happened on AMFA's side. A % increase in SWA's senority IS NOT the same as a % decrease in AT's. Run the nubers and %'s and you will see.

[swamt]

AvTech04, on 22 October 2011 - 04:13 PM, said:

Just to sum up and create a quick reply. No one said the the SWA Mechanics wouldn't get anything out of this deal, the company has yet to make a proposal to the SWA Mechanics because obviously the company wants to avoid that until absolutely necessary, so they are just sitting on the side lines to see if an agreement can be made without having to bribe anyone to do it. Airtran isn't asking for DOH + pay + bennies, they are only asking for DOH, if it has to ride with 2 different contracts then so be it! AMFA will have to renegotiate the Airtran Mechanics contract with SWA down the line anyways... And DOH is the only fair way to merge the two work groups. Yes, I know it was a buy out but it doesn't change the fact that the Union contracts still states that it is a merger of work groups whether it be a buy out or merger of 2 different airlines, so legally it has to be done like a merger which imposes the M&B and the RWA thus forcing the work groups to be merged in a fair and equitable manner, as stated by the SWA CEO himself Gary Kelly. Virtually every other Mechanic work group that has ever been merged together has always done so with DOH.

As a history lesson, Airtran has bought another Airline! ValueJet purchased Airtran and continued under the Airtran name. All work groups merged with DOH... SWA is just being very unreasonable. And as a final note, Airtran Mechanics did concede in a loss of some seniority for the sake of respect to our SWA counterparts, the very first offer we made was NOT a DOH integration. The SWA Committee still turned it down...

Lastly, and this was supposed to be quick, I meant to disrespect towards you when I said dumbing it down in my earlier post, it was not intended to insult your intelligence, it was simply a saying I use frequently in order to explain something more simply. So, my apologizes if it was insulting in anyway.

So what was this concede in senority? Give numbers. Give % Give something. To this day you have not posted that. Why not???

[FADECFAULT]

Heard the same 12 yr crap AMFA wants too. Heard no meetings until pilot vote is over. Also heard AMFA reps said they didn't care about the integration and the merger in front of SWA management.
Class Act these people are..